MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:
Any person with half a brain in his/her head would immediately recognize the conflict of interest and apply analytical skepticism to the study.

Good point. Analytical skepticism might include, say, reading the study!?

What a loon, LOAP.

I mean really.

Why don't you just keep your crazy notions to yourself, huh?

Sheesh.
_Yong Xi
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Yong Xi »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:
TAK wrote:
If Turley and Co found a smoking gun that implicated BrighamYoung in the murders, do you think the Church / who funded this book, would let that evidence see the light of day?


Absolutely.


I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this is either naïve or disingenuous. A smoking gun aimed at BY would pose major problems for the church. How do you get around that one?
_TAK
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:
TAK wrote:
If Turley and Co found a smoking gun that implicated BrighamYoung in the murders, do you think the Church / who funded this book, would let that evidence see the light of day?


Absolutely.


Thank you for confirming that you would say anything in the effort to defend Mormonism..
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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_truth dancer
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _truth dancer »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
truth dancer wrote:I'm still wondering what is wrong with talking about a book prior to deciding if one wants to spend ones time and money on it.

Before I purchase a book I usually read some of the reviews on Amazon and talk to someone who has read it. I often have discussions about the book prior to purchasing it. Sometimes after discussing the book with someone who has read it I decide not to spend money on the book.

What is wrong with this?

Nothing. But virtually nobody here has even seen the book.

So let's rephrase your post:

pseudo-truth-dancer wrote:I'm still wondering what is wrong with talking about a book prior to deciding if one wants to spend ones time and money on it.

Before I purchase a book I usually read some of the comments on MDB by people who haven't seen it and talk to someone who hasn't read it. I often have discussions about the book with people unfamiliar with it prior to purchasing it. Sometimes after discussing the book with someone who hasn't read it I decide not to spend money on the book.

What is wrong with this?

Happy to have helped.


How about reading comments from those who have read the book and who share their impressions on MDB and MAD, along with reviewers who received an early copy, and those who write comments on Amazon?

Seriously, I don't understand what the problem is here. People often discuss a book prior to reading it. I think it is an appropriate activity.

Do not most people spend a little time before purchasing or reading a book deciding if it is worthwhile to do so?

I find it odd that you have an issue with this. Why?

And, why not address Beastie's point? You do see why some people (even faithful believers) may see a conflict of interest no?

Paid church employees writing a book about a horrific event in church history, funded by the LDS church and all... right? I'm not saying anything about the specifics of the book, I'm asking you if you understand why some people may wonder about a possible conflict of interest.

Here is a little prophesy for anyone interested... (OK, no one.. smile):

Apologists who read the new MMM book will say that it is a great read, the definitive book on the topic, and will "highly recommend" it.

Non-believers who read the new MMM book will say that there is nothing new and it is another apologetic work.

:-)

td
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

TAK wrote:

If Turley and Co found a smoking gun that implicated BrighamYoung in the murders, do you think the Church / who funded this book, would let that evidence see the light of day?


Absolutely.


Why should we listen to Packer and Oaks when we have LoaP and DCP to set us straight?

My earlier citations from Packer:

Those of us who are extensively engaged in researching the wisdom of man, including those who write and those who teach Church history, are not immune from these dangers. I have walked that road of scholarly research and study and know something of the dangers. If anything, we are more vulnerable than those in some of the other disciplines. Church history can he so interesting and so inspiring as to be a very powerful tool indeed for building faith. If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a faith destroyer.

President Brigham Young admonished Karl G. Maeser not to teach even the times table without the Spirit of the Lord. How much more essential is that Spirit in the research, the writing, and the teaching of Church history.

If we who research, write, and teach the history of the Church ignore the spiritual on the pretext that the world may not understand it, our work will not be objective. And if, for the same reason, we keep it quite secular, we will produce a history that is not accurate and not scholarly--this, in spite of the extent of research or the nature or the individual statements or the incidents which are included as part of it, and notwithstanding the training or scholarly reputation of the one who writes or teaches it. We would end up with a history with the one most essential ingredient left out.

Those who have the Spirit can recognize very quickly whether something is missing in a written Church history this in spite of the fact that the author may be a highly trained historian and the reader is not. And, I might add, we have been getting a great deal of experience in this regard in the past few year.

President Wilford Woodruff warned: "I will here say God has inspired me to keep a Journal and History of this Church, and I warn the future Historians to give Credence to my History of this Church and Kingdom; for my Testimony is true, and the truth of its record will be manifest in the world to Come."2


There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher Of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not.

Some things that are true are not very useful.

Historians seem to take great pride in publishing something new, particularly if it illustrates a weakness or mistake of a prominent historical figure. For some reason, historians and novelists seem to savor such things. If it related to a living person it would come under the heading of gossip. History can be as misleading as gossip and much more difficult--often impossible--to verify.

The writer or the teacher who has an exaggerated loyalty to the theory that everything must be told is laying a foundation for his own judgment. He should not complain if one day he himself receives as he has given. Perhaps that is what is contemplated in having one's sins preached from the housetops.

Some time ago a historian gave a lecture to an audience of college students on one of the past Presidents of the Church. It seemed to be his purpose to show that that President was a man subject to the foibles of men. He introduced many so-called facts that put that President in a very unfavorable light, particularly when they were taken out of the context of the historical period in which he lived.

Someone who was not theretofore acquainted with this historical figure (particularly someone not mature) must have come away very negatively affected. Those who were unsteady in their convictions surely must have had their faith weakened or destroyed.


That historian or scholar who delights in pointing out the weaknesses and frailties of present or past leaders destroys faith--A destroyer of faith--particularly one within the Church, and more particularly one who is employed specifically to build faith--places himself in great spiritual jeopardy. He is serving the wrong master, and unless he repents, he will not be among the faithful in the eternities.

One who chooses to follow the tenets of his profession, regardless of how they may injure the Church or destroy the faith of those not ready for "advanced history," is himself in spiritual jeopardy. If that one is a member of the Church, he has broken his covenants and will be accountable. After all of the tomorrows of mortality have been finished, he will not stand where be might have stood.

I recall a conversation with President Henry D. Moyle. We were driving back from Arizona and were talking about a man who destroyed the faith of young people from the vantage point of a teaching position. Someone asked President Moyle why this man was still a member of the Church when he did things like that. "He is not a member of the Church." President Moyle answered firmly. Another replied that he bad not heard of his excommunication. "He has excommunicated himself," President Moyle responded. "He cut himself off from the Spirit of God. Whether or not we get around to holding a court doesn't matter that much; he has cut himself off from he Spirit of the Lord."


In the Church we are not neutral. We are one-sided. There is a war going on and we are engaged in it. It is the war between good and evil, and we are belligerents defending the good. We are therefore obliged to give preference to and protect all that is represented in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and we have made covenants to do it.


And I want to say in all seriousness that there is a limit to the patience of the Lord with respect to those who are under covenant to bless and protect His Church and kingdom upon the earth but do not do it.


There is much in the scriptures and in our Church literature to convince us that we are at war with the adversary. We are not obliged as a church, nor are we as members obliged, to accommodate the enemy in this battle.

President Joseph Fielding Smith pointed out that it would be a foolish general who would give access to all of his intelligence to his enemy. It is neither expected nor necessary for us to accommodate those who seek to retrieve references from our sources, distort them, and use them against us.

Suppose that a well-managed business corporation is threatened by takeover from another corporation. Suppose that the corporation bent on the takeover is determined to drain off all its assets and then dissolve this company. You can rest assured that the threatened company would hire legal counsel to protect itself.


Do you not recognize a breach of ethics, or integrity, or morality?

I think you can see the point I am making. Those of you who are employed by the Church have a special responsibility to build faith not destroy it. If you do not do that, but in fact accommodate the enemy, who is the destroyer of faith you become in that sense a traitor to the cause you have made covenants to protect.


Oaks:
Elder Oaks' 1985 talk also contained the caution that "criticism is particularly objectionable when it is directed toward church authorities, general or local."

"Evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed is in a class by itself. It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true."


We have two different opinions on whether or not the church would allow such damaging information to be printed. Packer and Oaks, apostles and very influential leaders in the church, obviously would not allow it to be printed, if we are to take their words seriously here. OTOH, we have DCP and LoaP assuring us that yes, the church would allow it to be printed.

Riiiiight. The day either DCP and LoaP have as much influence and power within the LDS church as Boyd K. Packer is the day I will take their words as seriously as I take Packer's words in this matter.

What more does anyone need???? For heaven's sake, Packer states in black and white that publishing material - even true material - that could damage the faith of LDS is a breach of integrity, ethics, morals, and that historian who does so will lose his eternal reward. The LDS church funded this project. Their employees directed the research and wrote the book. They gave the book to two apostles to be reviewed before publication.

Really, it's like we're all standing outside looking at a blue sky and DCP and LoaP adamantly insist the sky is pitch black.

I will note for those who have difficulties separating issues, that this is no comment about the accuracy of the book. It may be entirely accurate, I don't know. I do know that the situation presents a serious conflict of interest, and it is right and just to point that out - even before having read the material.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_antishock8
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _antishock8 »

This reminds me of orgs like CAIR that front for Islamic interests. They tell the public one thing while the Islamic group they supposedly represent say and do another. Misinformation seems to be the order of the day...
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

truth dancer wrote:And, why not address Beastie's point? You do see why some people (even faithful believers) may see a conflict of interest no?

Of course I do.

But it seems silly to me to go on about that subject for almost two weeks, for fourteen pages, and for nearly 300 posts without doing the obvious thing: looking at the book itself.

truth dancer wrote:Here is a little prophesy for anyone interested... (OK, no one.. smile):

Apologists who read the new MMM book will say that it is a great read, the definitive book on the topic, and will "highly recommend" it.

Non-believers who read the new MMM book will say that there is nothing new and it is another apologetic work.

You're presumably right about "apologists."

I very much doubt, though, that you're right about "non-believers." Not all non-Mormons are anti-Mormons or alienated apostates, and they're not a monolith. I suspect that the relevant authorities at Oxford University Press, and the peer reviewers whose evaluations they solicited, don't believe that "there is nothing new" in Massacre at Mountain Meadows or that it's merely "another apologetic work." Publishing such a book would be wildly out of character for Oxford. We can wait and see when the academic reviews begin coming in (which probably won't be for a year or so, at least, given the nature of academic publishing), but, while I expect a certain degree of hostility or mistrust from some quarters, I would be very much surprised if all of the reviews were negative in the way you predict.
_TAK
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

Apostle Dallin Oaks:

"
My duty as a member of the Council of the Twelve is to protect what is most unique about the LDS church, namely the authority of priesthood, testimony regarding the restoration of the gospel, and the divine mission of the Savior. Everything may be sacrificed in order to maintain the integrity of those essential facts. Thus, if Mormon Enigma reveals information that is detrimental to the reputation of Joseph Smith, then it is necessary to try to limit its influence and that of its authors."
- Apostle Dallin Oaks, footnote 28, Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith: Psychobiography and the Book of Mormon, Introduction p. xliii
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

truth dancer wrote:
And, why not address Beastie's point? You do see why some people (even faithful believers) may see a conflict of interest no?

Of course I do.

But it seems silly to me to go on about that subject for almost two weeks, for fourteen pages, and for nearly 300 posts without doing the obvious thing: looking at the book itself.


Finally! Thank you! Maybe the reason it's gone on for fourteen pages is the resistance defenders of the faith have had to admitting what's so obvious.*



*As far as I recall, this is the first time DCP has admitted the conflict of interest is a legitimate point. Perhaps I missed an earlier admission. If I missed it, that was my own sloppiness and I'm sure someone will point it out.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:Finally! Thank you! Maybe the reason it's gone on for fourteen pages is the resistance defenders of the faith have had to admitting what's so obvious.*

Here are some other obvious things: Parallel lines seem to converge in the distance, but they really don't converge. Spoons seem to be bent in water, but they're really not. The earth is round. Without air we die.

These are so obvious that I usually don't think it worth my while to assert them. Let alone to discuss them for two weeks and fourteen pages.

I repeat: It's weird to be so interested in the book without lifting a finger to pick it up.

beastie wrote:As far as I recall, this is the first time DCP has admitted the conflict of interest is a legitimate point. Perhaps I missed an earlier admission. If I missed it, that was my own sloppiness and I'm sure someone will point it out.

I've also never denied it.

I've said that the only valid way of assessing the book is by carefully reading the book.

The rest, given that the book exists and is easily accessible, is essentially obfuscation.
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