MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

by the way, here's another interesting perspective regarding the LDS church leaderships' past approach to history from Jan Shipps:

from “Sojourner in the Promise Land”, regarding Linda Newell:

Yes history is always there to provide a subtext, an alternate voice, reminding the Saints that role models change and that precedents point in more than one direction. For that reason, in addition to their straightforward attempts to control history itself, LDS leaders are making an effort to control the church’s pulpits and podiums to be sure that the history dispensed from them is faith- promoting and that it provides acceptable models for modern members of the church.

In this instance, the concern was Mormon women’s history. The church leadership wanted to be confident that anything said about the LDS women’s experience would hold up female models that priesthood leaders would regard as appropriate for the end of the twentieth century. It is easy to see, looking back from the end of the twentieth century, that what happened to Laurel Ulrich fits squarely into the defensive program with which the church guards its fortress against heterodoxy by exercising close oversight of public discourse about sensitive dimensions of LDS history, public conversation about the meaning of scripture, and unauthorized explications of dogma.

The standard pattern for controlling church rostrums had been established in 1985 with the silencing of Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery, coauthors of Mormon Enigma, an unauthorized biography of the wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Their work, publishedin New York by Doubleday in 1984, was a sympathetic portrayal of the prophet’s wife, one of the preeminent female models for Mormon women. At the same times, the biography included a picture of the prophet as seen through the eyes of his suffering wife on whim the introduction of plural marriage took a terrible toll. No doubt this less than sympathetic “nontraditional” depiction of the prophet was, in itself, disturbing to church leaders. What was more alarming however, was that the work, which became a prizewinner, generated enough interest to make it practically a bset-seller. Almost inevitably, the authors became the recipients of numerous invitations to speak, often to LDS women’s groups and adult “firesides”.


Shipps then references the aforementioned banning of Newell from talking about her book at church meetings. I do not have full access to the book, which I have not read but thought this quote was clear enough to serve its purpose on this thread. Shipps also references this event in a footnote on page 189:

See also Boyd K. Packer, “The Mantle is Far, Far Greater than the Intellect.” It was clear that the LDS apostle Packer spoke for the church in this warning against professional history. Further evidence of the concern of LDS general authorities about new historical writing was supplied when Linda K. Newell and Valeen T. Avery, the authors of Mormon Enigma, a critical biography of the Mormon Prophet’s first wife, were forbidden to talk about their work at LDS women’s groups or any other official church meetings.


Of course not allowing historians to speak about their work in church meetings is slightly different than what we’re discussing with regards to the Massacre at Mountain Meadows, but it does reflect the basic desire to control history, which is the entire point of the conflict of interest.
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_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

I've also been meaning to include this review from Amazon, which I think makes a point similar to the one I've been trying to make (although he addresses the book's contents while I do not, since I have not yet read it). The review was written by Eric Facer:

Messrs. Walker, Turley and Leonard have made a valuable contribution to our understanding of one of the most incomprehensible tragedies in both U.S. and Mormon history: the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Their research, by all appearances, was both thorough and exhaustive. And their narrative does an excellent job of recreating the political, religious and emotional world in which this calamity unfolded. They are almost clinical in their description of the planning and execution of these brutal and senseless murders; the final chapters of the book are not for the faint of heart.

Each author is a member (as am I) of the LDS Church, a fact that they openly acknowledge at the beginning of the book. Because of their religious affiliation and their training as historians, they were given unfettered access to Church archives as they gathered research for their book. However, their theological convictions and their desire not to bite the hand that was feeding them may have compromised their objectivity and prompted them to downplay the culpability of Brigham Young and other senior church leaders.

One of the authors, Glen Leonard, stated on the PBS miniseries "The Mormons" that: "As I explored the sources, I felt relieved at what I found. I felt comforted that Brigham Young did what he thought was best in his Utah war policy." This statement suggests that Mr. Leonard approached his research with the hope and desire that his findings would exonerate a former leader of his church. Such an open declaration of a predisposition towards a desired outcome will inevitably cause others to question the integrity of your research and the impartiality of your analysis. And whether Young thought he did his best is only marginally relevant; the important question is: did he? Simply stated, this is unprofessional.

And even more troubling was the decision on the part of the authors (assuming they had a choice in the matter) to ask two Mormon apostles to review their manuscript (p. 237). They tout the fact that they were given free reign by church authorities to pursue all lines of inquiry and to ferret out the truth wherever they could find it. But this seems rather hollow when we are told that two senior officials of the church that is at the center of this controversial historical episode were afforded the opportunity comment on their work before publication. Perhaps the authors had the discretion to ignore the feedback they received from those two general authorities, but I know very few devout LDS historians who would have the courage to do so. Besides, whether or not these church leaders ultimately influenced the end product is not relevant; it is the appearance that they might have that is disconcerting.

Of equal concern is the authors' conclusion that Brigham Young, George A. Smith and others were guilty of little more than "flamboyant rhetoric" that "stirred up some emotions that got out of control" (see pp. 99-100 and Leonard's interview on the PBS miniseries). I do agree that there is insufficient evidence to substantiate the allegation that Young or any other church official in Salt Lake ordered the massacre. But they clearly contributed, in a variety of different ways over an extended period of time, to an environment of odium and distrust that allowed the idea for the massacre to germinate and blossom in all its horror. The belief in personal and institutional inerrancy that seems to accompany all theocracies, the Mormon reformation in the mid-1850s, the compulsory blind obedience that was used to measure a church member's righteousness and ultimately to compel participation in the massacre, the irrational millennialism, the militant war policies, and the willingness to trade "hate for hate"--all of these were at the root of the Mountain Meadows Massacre and can be traced, to significant degree, to Salt Lake. The authors rightly note that the paranoia that infected both the church leadership and the members was quite real, being grounded in years of unrelenting persecution, which state and federal governments had failed to redress. And there was a genuine perception that the U.S. Army was about to invade the Utah Territory and depose Governor Young. These mitigating factors, however, cannot fully exonerate the actions of any of the participants.

As is the case with all such tragedies, there is blame aplenty for all to share. And I do not pretend to sit in judgment on any of the actors on this stage. I will be the first to admit that I am not in possession of sufficient facts to do so; it also is not my place. But I will ask: Have we, as a nation and a church, learned all the lessons to be derived from this horrific episode in our history? At times I think we have; but sometimes I am not so sure.
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_antishock8
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _antishock8 »

Beastie,

You've done an excellent service to anyone who's willing to read through this thread at deconstructing the Mormon mindset regarding truth. Paying lip service to truth, while advocating [against] it , and actually subverting it in some cases, seems to be the norm for LDS hierarchy. Hopefully this thread gets archived so it can be researched by future apostates.

-AS8
Last edited by Guest on Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

Thanks, antishock, I'm glad that you found it useful.

I agree that this thread has been revealing in regards to the apologetic mindset. Even the constant jeering played a part in that revelation, oddly enough.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Wow. Twenty-one pages.

Wow.

And still no book.

Wow.
_James Clifford Miller
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _James Clifford Miller »

antishock8 wrote:Beastie,

You've done an excellent service to anyone who's willing to read through this thread at deconstructing the Mormon mindset regarding truth. Paying lip service to truth, while advocating [against] it , and actually subverting it in some cases, seems to be the norm for LDS hierarchy. Hopefully this thread gets archived so it can be researched by future apostates.

-AS8

Certainly Turley et al's recent MMM book (which I have read) is an example. It pays lip service to the truth when it explicitly says that, contrary to previous LDS allegations, no, the Fancher party didn't have it coming. But then it plays to Chapel Mormons by regurgitating the threats (which mostly didn't appear for decades) which forced the Cedar City LDS to kill the emigrants. And it pays lip service to the truth when it explicitly says that, contrary to previous LDS allegations, no, Indians didn't do most of the killing -- the Cedar City militia did. But it plays to Chapel Mormons by playing up the Indians' participation.

I predicted that the MADB crowd would jump in on the "they had it coming" bandwagon, and sure enough they did. Look at Pahoran's and Scott Lloyd's currently running allegations about how terrified the Cedar City LDS were by the "threats" of the wagon train that its members would send a U.S. Army back to Utah Territory to kill the Cedar City LDS and possess their farms in retaliation for refusing to sell food to the wagon train. So they had no choice but to kill them all.

But don't believe me, here's what Brother Lloyd wrote:
Scott Lloyd @ Aug 6 2008, 05:44 PM) MADB Post 139
“The documented scenario in the book is essentially that against the background of alarm engendered by the advance of the U.S. army, rumors along the trail and the reckless behavior and taunts of some of the emigrants started a spiral that culminated with the massacre. The plan first was to effect a "brush" against the Fancher train, steal some cattle and blame it all on the Indians. It became complicated when some of the surviving emigrants observed participation by white men. Then, it became a matter of leaving no one alive who was old enough to tell any tales."


And LeSellers wrote:
LeSellers Aug 7 2008, 11:20 AM MADB Post 168
"My view of their motive is that the F-B folks were mad about not being able to buy what they wanted, and were threatening the Saints with a reprisal in the form of US Army Troops from California. Given that Johnston's Army was enroute at that very minute, the threat was more than just credible. Their primary motivation was abject fear, as I see the situation."


I'm glad to see at least some critics over at MADB are pointing out this Wellsian doubletalk, which I think is deliberate.

Incidentally, Dr. Peterson -- you rejected my suggestion that your fellow apologists would jump in on the bandwagon of the traditional LDS "they had it coming" defense, but you can read their efforts in black and white in the two quotes above. I seem to have been right, after all, sir.

James Clifford Miller
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

James Clifford Miller wrote:Certainly Turley et al's recent MMM book (which I have read) is an example. It pays lip service to the truth when it explicitly says that, contrary to previous LDS allegations, no, the Fancher party didn't have it coming. But then it plays to Chapel Mormons by regurgitating the threats (which mostly didn't appear for decades) which forced the Cedar City LDS to kill the emigrants.

And then, for example, having recounted the rumors that the Fancher party poisoned oxen and killed Indians and settlers along the way, it debunks those rumors, explaining that the deaths near Corn Creek were probably the result of anthrax.

James Clifford Miller wrote:And it pays lip service to the truth when it explicitly says that, contrary to previous LDS allegations, no, Indians didn't do most of the killing -- the Cedar City militia did. But it plays to Chapel Mormons by playing up the Indians' participation.

I've just about finished the book. I find your reading of it extremely weird.

James Clifford Miller wrote:I predicted that the MADB crowd would jump in on the "they had it coming" bandwagon, and sure enough they did.

Nobody on that thread, so far as I can tell, thinks that "they had it coming."

And the authors of Massacre at Mountain Meadows certainly don't think so.

James Clifford Miller wrote:Look at Pahoran's and Scott Lloyd's currently running allegations about how terrified the Cedar City LDS were by the "threats" of the wagon train that its members would send a U.S. Army back to Utah Territory to kill the Cedar City LDS and possess their farms in retaliation for refusing to sell food to the wagon train. So they had no choice but to kill them all.

Neither Pahoran nor Scott Lloyd has said anything remotely like "So they had no choice but to kill them." That's a mendacious misrepresentation.

James Clifford Miller wrote:Incidentally, Dr. Peterson -- you rejected my suggestion that your fellow apologists would jump in on the bandwagon of the traditional LDS "they had it coming" defense, but you can read their efforts in black and white in the two quotes above. I seem to have been right, after all, sir.

You don't "seem to have been right." And you're wrong.

You don't have to slander Mormons as defenders of mass murder merely because you've rejected Mormonism.
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

I don't think that LeSellers and Lloyd are saying that the Fancher party "had it coming", but they are saying that Fancher party acted in a provocative manner. And it's not just those two saying it - the radio interviewer also phrased one of his questions to reflect that he, also, interpreted the book to mean that the Fancher party behaved in a belligerent and provocative manner. The authors corrected him, but it certainly appears to me, at this point, that several intelligent readers have gotten the impression from the book that the party was behaving in a provocative and belligerent manner. As I said previously on this thread, that's one of the things that I'm going to watch for as I read it - why, if the authors explicitly state that the Fanchers did not behave in a way that provoked the Mormons, are readers still coming away with the impression that they did? The other thing I'm particularly curious about is the possibility that Eleanor Pratt linked the Fancher party to the people who killed Parley, as well as whether or not the former temple oaths were discussed.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_Trevor
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Trevor »

beastie,

Thanks for posting the Eric Facer review. I think he has pinpointed some important reasons why not a few people will find this enterprise suspect. I am not convinced that there should be such suspicion. After all, aren't most church outsiders going to understand why it is that three LDS historians, who enjoy full fellowship in the faith, will not play up the role of Brigham Young and other LDS leaders in creating an atmosphere that one might have foreseen ending in a catastrophe of some kind? It is no mystery to me why this would be the case. At the end of the day, I am sympathetic to them for doing what they do, and I take their work for what it provides--and what it provides is evidently of great value (they have brought previously unused source material to bear on the problem, for example). At the same time, I am concerned about any downplaying of Brigham's role or possibly unwise leadership.

Having said that, I just received the book in the mail yesterday and I have started reading it. I will refrain from further comment until I have completed it.
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_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

Thanks for posting the Eric Facer review. I think he has pinpointed some important reasons why not a few people will find this enterprise suspect. I am not convinced that there should be such suspicion. After all, aren't most church outsiders going to understand why it is that three LDS historians, who enjoy full fellowship in the faith, will not play up the role of Brigham Young and other LDS leaders in creating an atmosphere that one might have foreseen ending in a catastrophe of some kind? It is no mystery to me why this would be the case. At the end of the day, I am sympathetic to them for doing what they do, and I take their work for what it provides--and what it provides is evidently of great value (they have brought previously unused source material to bear on the problem, for example). At the same time, I am concerned about any downplaying of Brigham's role or possibly unwise leadership.

Having said that, I just received the book in the mail yesterday and I have started reading it. I will refrain from further comment until I have completed it.


Good point. I want to emphasize that I have not stated that the work is worthless, full of lies, a whitewash, or any of the pejorative statements that DCP has tried to attach to my words. I have repeatedly stated that the work may, indeed, be accurate. The wiki statement about conflict of interest was astute, because it stated that the conflict of interest exists even if no unethical behavior took place. I think that, as you’re saying, most sensible people are going to realize that the conflict of interest exists, and understand the either notable impact or slight bias that will be the result of that conflict (I don’t know what the impact is, not having read it yet, and then, of course, have my own bias to deal with, which is that I think Bagley made a strong case for the idea that BY wanted to send a message to the federal government that his bargaining chip was to do something that would result in decreased safety for traveling immigrants – what that “something” is another question – was it to encourage the Indians to attack the wagon trains, or something more?). So the conflict of interest is obviously not a death toll for the book, otherwise I wouldn’t have bothered to order it.

I do think the presentation of previously inaccessible information is likely the most valuable contribution of this work. I also think, as I have repeatedly stated, that the obvious conflict of interest will be mitigated if and when the church opens that same material to other qualified researchers, like Will Bagley. If they only allow access to part of that material, or continue to restrict access to that material, the conflict of interest will be left unmitigated, and interested parties will be left handicapped in determining what impact, if any, the conflict of interest may have had.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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