Smac again

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_harmony
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Re: Smac again

Post by _harmony »

Sethbag wrote:I think Smac's argument is majorly flawed. He says that high levels of religiosity correspond to lessened risk of suicide, and even argued that increasing their religiosity would probably lessen the likelihood of suicide by gays. While this may actually be true for heterosexual members, I hardly think this is true for gay members. If anything, an attempt to increase religiosity by gay members may in fact be one of the factors leading to their suicide. That's because the true believer who is gay can see himself as deeply unworthy and unclean, and as an abomination, under the belief system.


I agree. I think Smac is doing what Smac does really well: ignoring the real problem while attacking a strawman.

Utah consistently is in the top 10 on the charts for suicides; just Google Utah suicides and a host of interesting sites pop up. Highest risk factors: male with access to a gun. The lack of mental health treatment options is also a factor.

The LDS church creates a toxic atmosphere for gay men. There is simply no other way to say it. Add in the other stressors, and there is no reason for anyone to be surprised at the number of suicides in Utah.

From a report titled "Youth Suicide in Utah", April 24, 2006, b Sharon Lindbloom:

Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff gave his opinion on this issue when he said,

“We have this ‘All is well in Zion’ kind of thing going here. We’d rather not talk about it at all or maybe to go talk to the bishop about it. If there really is a mental health issue you need help. It doesn’t work to talk to the youth leaders or ecclesiastic leaders.”

Indeed. I did a search of LDS Church magazines and curriculum for the past 10 years. I searched for the word “suicide” in General Conference reports, First Presidency messages, general women’s meetings, Visiting Teaching messages, and the words of all General Authorities and found no discussion of the topic whatsoever. I found only three instances where the word “suicide” was even mentioned, and all three were in passing, in talks on other subjects. It’s amazing to me that the leadership of the Mormon Church does not provide help and hope for those suffering from pain related to suicide. No wonder it’s thought to be a taboo subject that must be borne alone.

In a study done by several doctors associated with the University of Utah School of Medicine, officials examined the suicide deaths of 49 Utah young people, conducting 270 hours of interviews with parents and other survivors:

“The study made clear the role society’s attitude plays in this problem and concluded those who died faced the following barriers for adequate mental health care:
The belief that nothing could help.
The belief that seeking help is a sign of weakness or failure.
The reluctance to admit to having mental health problems.
The denial of problems.
The embarrassment about seeking help.


“The study concluded, ‘It is suggested that the stigma of mental illness is a considerable barrier to mental health treatment.’


So, in addition to all the other stressors that contribute to suicide in Utah, add being gay in a toxic environment.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: Smac again

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

harmony wrote:On MAD, Smac attacks Carolyn Pearson for this article in the Trib.

I used to debate with Smac for years before I was banned from FAIR/MAD. He liked to brag about being an attorney, but I did not find him very bright, even on legal issues. This simply confirms he hasn't changed.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_The Nehor
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Re: Smac again

Post by _The Nehor »

NEWSFLASH: People in religion that don't live religion have a hard time.

Details later on tonight.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_skippy the dead
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Re: Smac again

Post by _skippy the dead »

The Nehor wrote:NEWSFLASH: People in religion that don't live religion have a hard time.

Details later on tonight.


Making them suicidal? Don't be stupid.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
_SatanWasSetUp
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Re: Smac again

Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

smac97 wrote:
I firmly believe that homosexual conduct is not compatible with the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.


I agree with Smac on this. The LDS church is not a place for homosexuals. I can't imagine what a homosexual has to go through to fit into the LDS culture. The church and its missionaries need to be honest with homosexuals and tell them they're not welcome in the church. It would make life easier for both groups.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
_truth dancer
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Re: Smac again

Post by _truth dancer »

I agree...

The church should just be honest and come out and say to those with SSA, "We don't want you unless you will pretend to be heterosexual."

:-(

td
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_skippy the dead
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Re: Smac again

Post by _skippy the dead »

truth dancer wrote:I agree...

The church should just be honest and come out and say to those with SSA, "We don't want you unless you will pretend to be heterosexual."

:-(

td


I thought that was effectively what the church does?
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
_The Nehor
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Re: Smac again

Post by _The Nehor »

skippy the dead wrote:
The Nehor wrote:NEWSFLASH: People in religion that don't live religion have a hard time.

Details later on tonight.


Making them suicidal? Don't be stupid.


Let's examine suicide then. Since belief in the LDS Church coupled with SSA leads to suicide let's look at how stupid that is. I have a problem with sin. The best way out is to kill myself so I can rot in hell dealing with my sin. Yeah....... that makes sense.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Re: Smac again

Post by _The Nehor »

skippy the dead wrote:
truth dancer wrote:I agree...

The church should just be honest and come out and say to those with SSA, "We don't want you unless you will pretend to be heterosexual."

:-(

td


I thought that was effectively what the church does?


We say change your orientation if you can. If not, remain celibate.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_skippy the dead
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Re: Smac again

Post by _skippy the dead »

The Nehor wrote:Let's examine suicide then. Since belief in the LDS Church coupled with SSA leads to suicide let's look at how stupid that is. I have a problem with sin. The best way out is to kill myself so I can rot in hell dealing with my sin. Yeah....... that makes sense.


You miss the point ever so completely.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
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