Mike Ash radio interview today re Shaken Faith Syndrome

[_Jason Bourne]

[list][*]VH introduced the author and the book. Says that when it comes to difficult or challenging issues, most members have no interest whatsoever in this sort of thing.

THis is true and most deny there are challenging issues.

[*]VH: Another problem is the expectation that "church & its leaders must be perfect." MA: That's what ties into most if not all of the rest of the tough issues.

The leaders teach "Follow the brethren" and that the prophet cannot lead the church astray. There are constant talks about following the prophet. If the members have an expectation that what the leaders say mean something is is because the leaders teach this.

VH: Once members grasp that the leaders have their own opinions, etc., then 90% of the problems go away.

Of course they have opinions but is 90% of what they say opinions?

[*]VH: "We have a lot of opinions in Mormonism, but not much revelation."

Woe slow done here nellie. We don;t have much revelation? I thought this was what Mormonism was all about. Revelation. That is what we told people when I was a missionary. We have a prophet, revelation, in ETBs words Today's news today. What do I neen a leader that is all opinion for?

MA agrees, "We don't have that many doctrines in Mormonism." The purpose of the leaders is to get us to open the dialogue with God like they have.

Oh horse crap. This is the way apologists deal with difficult issues. " that is not doctrine, just opinion." Leaders don't think they have as many opinions and the apologist does.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Jason, seems these two talk off the top of their heads without much thought of how dots connect. Sort-of eating the cake, and having it too.

I think the more apologists dance the more dust is raised that covered the past, bringing into clearer view the absurdities that at one time served purposes that are now better served by intelligence, truth and reason. We don't need apologists. We need admitists. Warm regards, Roger

[_Daniel Peterson]

It might be helpful, for those who want to critique Mike Ash's position, to read Mike Ash's book -- in which, presumably, he's taken the most care to lay that position out.

[_Roger Morrison]

It might be helpful, for those who want to critique Mike Ash's position, to read Mike Ash's book -- in which, presumably, he's taken the most care to lay that position out.

Good idea Dan. I'll try to access it. From the bits & pieces here, I get the impression he is under 50 in age, and thus he might not be as TBM as some older believers?

On a scale from Adam's Rib, through the Flood and the Ark story, Jonah, Job, the Tower of Babel to Abraham as THE father of all, and Joseph Smith as THE Prophet of this, the last dispensation of the fullness of times...

0 taking none of the above literally, 10 taking it all literally, I THINK the scew might be higher towards the 0?? Then again, we have the familiar bell-curve centre clusster... What think ye??

[_Nightingale]

It might be helpful, for those who want to critique Mike Ash's position, to read Mike Ash's book -- in which, presumably, he's taken the most care to lay that position out.

This could be facilitated more easily were Des Books not out of stock. :)

Do you think Mr. Ash has a stockpile in his basement? How much would he charge for shipping? (It's over $10 from Des Books to Western Canada).

Meanwhile, seeing as he was discussing his position on the radio program, I think it's fair game to at least discuss that portion of things.

It is, of course, always fun to speculate and generalize and speculate some more in the meanwhile. :)


On review of the above, to save DCP one post, I'll go ahead and say that yes, it is slightly ridiculous to ask him what Mr. Ash would do. However, as they are both Mormons, maybe they can read each other's minds? {Jenn Kamp}

A friend of mine is an author and she has books piled up at her place for direct distribution (in addition to the usual route). It is actually faster, though, to bypass her and get them from the bookshop. Last time I purchased material from Utah/AZ it took ages to get here, even paying premium shipping. Maybe by the time I get Mr. Ash's book, the time for discussion will have passed (especially as they're out of stock)?

[_Sethbag]

He's no longer "one of us" - as Mr. Meldrum he's impliedly "one of them".

Would "implicitly" do?

Impliedly is a real word too. ;-) And it means pretty much what I wanted to say in this sentence.

[_Jason Bourne]

It might be helpful, for those who want to critique Mike Ash's position, to read Mike Ash's book -- in which, presumably, he's taken the most care to lay that position out.

I am not sure I see any critiquing of his book least by me. I simply commented on some of the discussion from the radio program. I mean honestly Dr Peterson, do you really think the LDS Church leaders buy into comments like we have little revelation, hardly any doctrine but only a rough outline to guide us and most of what they say are opinions? I often find this a common theme among apologists. But this is not what the Church I grew up in taught nor did or do those who run it.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

I also agree that it will be very difficult for these folks to let go of their essential hostility and penchant for personal attack.

Can you relate or something? ;)

[_Trevor]

Impliedly is a real word too. ;-) And it means pretty much what I wanted to say in this sentence.

Oh, I know it is a real word. It is just such an inelegant one. Yuck.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I am not sure I see any critiquing of his book least by me. I simply commented on some of the discussion from the radio program. I mean honestly Dr Peterson, do you really think the LDS Church leaders buy into comments like we have little revelation, hardly any doctrine but only a rough outline to guide us and most of what they say are opinions? I often find this a common theme among apologists. But this is not what the Church I grew up in taught nor did or do those who run it.

I think people may be talking past one another on this topic.

I believe that the Church is run by prophets, seers, and revelators who receive revelation. (I've received revelation myself, so I don't doubt that they do.) But I don't think their every move or utterance is led directly by God, and I don't see them claiming anything of the sort. And I believe that there are fixed and established doctrines in the Church, but I also believe that there is much, very much, that we don't know.

What we may have here is an argument between people declaring that the glass is half full and those who counter that it's half empty.