MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

I hadn't realized that you so desperately needed me to "admit" what everyone already knows.

If there are any other truisms, tautologies, or things-people-know-from-the-time-they're-children that you need me to confess, just let me know. Now that I understand you a bit better, I'll be happy to fess up to the fact that the sky is blue, that Democrats and Republicans don't always agree, that circles are round, that not everybody loved Ronald Reagan, that New Zealand isn't in Europe, that all men are mortal, that Socrates is a man, and lots of similar things.


Sadly, it’s been my experience that internet defenders of the faith often refuse to concede what everyone already knows, so it concession cannot be taken for granted. In fact, they will often argue themselves blue in the face, even, at times, descending to tactics such as claiming the critic is engaging in slander, or creating strawmen such as claiming the critic said that anything coming from Church historians who had the support of the Church is very likely going to be dishonest and a distortion.

However, I must say, given the fact that you apparently agreed with my primary points all along, it is quite odd that you spent so much time arguing with me on this thread.


Image
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:I must say, given the fact that you apparently agreed with my primary points all along, it is quite odd that you spent so much time arguing with me on this thread.

It has, very plainly, been a waste of my time.

Whoosh!
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:I knew I would finally get it out of you. Yes, it took 26 pages, but you finally admitted what everyone already knows – the church has had an “uneasy history, on occasion, between some professional LDS historians and some Church leaders”. And who cares whether or not it was an official doctrine or simply the opinions and practices of influential leaders? (which is how I’ve repeatedly stated the situation – I’ve never stated it was some sort of “official policy”).


I'm not sure where in this thread DCP ever denied such.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:
Image


That book completely stinks. The dialog was old hat, the premise was old, the protagonist was obnoxious and I hated the pacing.

As soon as I get around to reading it I'll let you know details.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_beastie
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

I'm not sure where in this thread DCP ever denied such.


Are you kidding me? DCP practically accused me of slander when I referred to Packer's statements as supporting my contention that he encourages the suppression of historical facts that could damage the faith. He also claimed that my statements on this thread were the equivalent of stating that "anything coming from Church historians who had the support of the Church is very likely going to be dishonest and a distortion." And you two are going to insist that he always agreed with my points? Please.

That book completely stinks. The dialog was old hat, the premise was old, the protagonist was obnoxious and I hated the pacing.

As soon as I get around to reading it I'll let you know details.


Learn to differentiate between discussing the conflict of interest and the reasonable undermining of confidence surrounding this text and actually discussing the content of the book. I know it's tough, but if you concentrate hard enough, I bet you can do it.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_LifeOnaPlate
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Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

beastie wrote:
I'm not sure where in this thread DCP ever denied such.


Are you kidding me? DCP practically accused me of slander when I referred to Packer's statements as supporting my contention that he encourages the suppression of historical facts that could damage the faith. He also claimed that my statements on this thread were the equivalent of stating that "anything coming from Church historians who had the support of the Church is very likely going to be dishonest and a distortion." And you two are going to insist that he always agreed with my points? Please.

That book completely stinks. The dialog was old hat, the premise was old, the protagonist was obnoxious and I hated the pacing.

As soon as I get around to reading it I'll let you know details.


Learn to differentiate between discussing the conflict of interest and the reasonable undermining of confidence surrounding this text and actually discussing the content of the book. I know it's tough, but if you concentrate hard enough, I bet you can do it.


So you're telling me you liked the book?
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:And you two are going to insist that he always agreed with my points? Please.

I'm not.

But I think I've been too subtle for you. My apologies.
_beastie
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _beastie »

I'm not.

But I think I've been too subtle for you. My apologies.


I momentarily forgot that vagueness and statements crafted with enough ambiguity for future deniability is your modus operandus.

Of course, if I'm incorrect, and that is not your modus operandus, you could actually explain which if the following points you disagree with.


1 – the conflict of interest (spare me parsing about “possible” versus “actual”)
2- the past “uneasy history between some professional LDS historians and some Church leaders”
3- as of this moment, other qualified researchers do not have access to the previously inaccessible material that the church leaders opened to the authors

Now, the final conclusion is:

Reasonable people appreciate how these three elements work together to undermine confidence in this work, and that undermined confidence can only be adequately resolved by allowing other qualified researchers access to the previously inaccessible material.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:I momentarily forgot that vagueness and statements crafted with enough ambiguity for future deniability is your modus operandus.

The term is modus operandi, beastie. There's a grammatical reason for that.

My modus operandi is careful distinctions and nuances. They're essential for accurate thought.

beastie wrote:Of course, if I'm incorrect, and that is not your modus operandus, you could actually explain which if the following points you disagree with.

I've explained my viewpoint. Several times. You're evidently more interested in polemicizing with a meat axe and scoring imagined points than in understanding it.
_GoodK

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _GoodK »

Shades, please delete this entire thread.

It is long past due.
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