Moral failure of LDS Leadership in Iraq invasion by US.

[_harmony]

Once something is legitimized it becomes more likely to happen. A lot more people who identify as straight experiment with homosexuality then did ten years ago, more will happen if we legitimize homosexuality. Homosexuals will move more openly.

And you see this as a bad thing? Openness, tolerance, caring about one's neighbors?

I hate to be the one to tell you this, Nehor, but homosexuality is already legal; it's been legitimate since before you were born. Homosexuals can attend public schools without harassment, can own businesses and homes, can pay taxes, can vote. It's homosexual marriage that isn't legal yet. And that last bastion of our male-dominated society is slowly crumbling.

[_The Nehor]

Once something is legitimized it becomes more likely to happen. A lot more people who identify as straight experiment with homosexuality then did ten years ago, more will happen if we legitimize homosexuality. Homosexuals will move more openly.

And you see this as a bad thing? Openness, tolerance, caring about one's neighbors?

I hate to be the one to tell you this, Nehor, but homosexuality is already legal; it's been legitimate since before you were born. Homosexuals can attend public schools without harassment, can own businesses and homes, can pay taxes, can vote. It's homosexual marriage that isn't legal yet. And that last bastion of our male-dominated society is slowly crumbling.

Openness....I have no idea how this relates.

Tolerance....tolerance as I understand it means not violently attacking/persecuting others due to differences. I'm not advocating that.

Caring about one's neighbors is good. If someone is destroying themselves and society a caring person will try to stop them. A passive PC person will (if they agree with me) say they have the right to ruin their own lives and ignore the effects on others.

I know it's legal. It's still classed as an alternative lifestyle. It's still fringe. It's still not completely socially acceptable in all circles. Marriage gives them nothing but legitimacy in the eyes of people. It's the government placing a stamp of approval on it. Also, as I've said before I'm pretty sure this bastion as you put it will fall. I just want to delay it. This way lies madness but hey at least we're tolerant of everything (right or wrong).

[_Angus McAwesome]

Yes, because homosexual relationships are so monogamous. Check the numbers.

Ok, show us some numbers then. I mean, you keep claiming there's mounds of evidence to support your claims but you never show any.

Once something is legitimized it becomes more likely to happen. A lot more people who identify as straight experiment with homosexuality then did ten years ago, more will happen if we legitimize homosexuality.

Hey, look everyone! More claims without any evidence to back them up. Surprise, surprise...

Homosexuals will move more openly.

Why do gays scare you so very much, Nehor? And don't try to pass this off as mere "distaste", because I find asparagus distasteful, yet you don't see me actively trying to campaign against asparagus and people that eat it.

They can't be blamed for all of it. Some of it? Yes. The LDS Church is fighting the war on both fronts. The legal battle continues in only one. We're not likely to be able to criminalize adultery.

Ok, show some actual evidence that gays have anything at all to do with over half of heterosexual marriages ending in divorce. By evidence I mean statistical evidence compiled by a credible organization (i.e. not some church org or GLAAD source), and not more of your anecdotes about "I know this one guy who's cousin's former room mate's father's brother divorced his wife to go be gay".

Great to see you back peddle again though...

I don't see homosexuality as more or less dangerous then heterosexual infidelity. However, arguing that one form of sexual infidelity is more dangerous then another is silly.

Holy failed analogy, Batman! Yes, because marital infidelity, something that can actually be factually linked to divorce is the same as homosexuality which you have yet to show any evidence at all that it can contribute at all to divorce in heterosexual marriages.

Unless you can provide some evidence to back that up. I doubt it, but it would be nice to see you do so for a change.

We're not criminalizing homosexual marriage, we just want it to stay illegal.

Plain English translation: "I'm not a bigot, I just want to deny other citizens their rights."

I've been taking a lot of heat lately with people insisting that I make such a big deal out of homosexuality and that I ignore heterosexual sexual problems. Let me clarify. I think an adulterer is as bad as a practicing homosexual. I think a philanderer (married or not) is in the same category. Why I think that anyone having sex outside marriage (whether it's hetero or homo sex) is making a horrible mistake just short of murder. If there were more threads on heterosexual promiscuity I'd be just as annoying there.

Then you've got the most jacked up moral code I've heard of out of anyone on this board. Seriously, you think premarital sex, a completely victimless act, is almost on par with murder? The worst part is you honestly have no idea of just how screwed up that line of reason is.

Tolerance....tolerance as I understand it means not violently attacking/persecuting others due to differences. I'm not advocating that.

No, you're advocating denying other citizens their civil rights because you find their lifestyle "distastreful" for arbitrary religious reasons. Bigotry is as Bigotry does.

Caring about one's neighbors is good. If someone is destroying themselves and society a caring person will try to stop them.

Demonstrate how homosexuals are destroying society and provide evidence to support that claim.

This way lies madness but hey at least we're tolerant of everything (right or wrong).

Could it be? is it? IT IS! Nehor tosses out a slippery slope fallacy after making a lot of claims and failing to provide evidence for any of them!

[_The Nehor]

I have no objective way to present studies showing that sexual immorality (including homosexuality) are detrimental to society and you know this. I still think it is fairly easy to reach that conclusion just by living in society. If you choose not to or don't see it then I think you're naïve but I can't help you beyond saying that. I also can't find many studies showing that murder is detrimental to society.

I'm bowing out now. This is a losing battle in the sense that the LDS faith and their allies in this cause WILL lose and if we can't convince society as a whole trying to convince bitter enemies of my faith is a futile gesture. We've planted our flag. Now we just fight until we're beaten and then watch the results. It will be a wild ride.

[_Angus McAwesome]

I have no objective way to present studies showing that sexual immorality (including homosexuality) are detrimental to society and you know this.

So that would mean it is just your opinion and there is no factual basis for it. Honestly, why did it take you so long to just come out and admit this?

I still think it is fairly easy to reach that conclusion just by living in society.

So then you're willing to deprive other citizens of their rights based on hunch or a feeling? No evidence, no facts, just "well, I believe..."?

If you choose not to or don't see it then I think you're naïve but I can't help you beyond saying that.

You're the one making baseless claims based on hunches and feeling and I'm naïve?

I also can't find many studies showing that murder is detrimental to society.

Nice red herring ya got there, Nehor. Also, try using google, noob.

I'm bowing out now. This is a losing battle in the sense that the LDS faith and their allies in this cause WILL lose and if we can't convince society as a whole trying to convince bitter enemies of my faith is a futile gesture. We've planted our flag. Now we just fight until we're beaten and then watch the results. It will be a wild ride.

Translation: "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I can't support my irrational position because it's based in feeling and hunches and has no supportive evidence at all so I'm gonna give up."

Concession accepted. I win.

[_The Nehor]

Translation: "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! I can't support my irrational position because it's based in feeling and hunches and has no supportive evidence at all so I'm gonna give up."

Concession accepted. I win.

Well, whatever else may be said, the gift of translation is surely NOT evident among apostates. However, the Scratchian method of declaring victory at random is prevalent among them.

I did not concede. You did not win.

[_antishock8]

You bowed out. It's the same as a concession. Oh, wait, definitions to Internet Mormons are as solid as Mormon doctrines are to Internet Mormons.

[_The Nehor]

So, leaving a thread means you lose? So all I have to do is keep posting and I can never lose? If I do I do lose.....

Wow, it's amazing how short some threads are based on this definition.

[_Angus McAwesome]

So, leaving a thread means you lose? So all I have to do is keep posting and I can never lose? If I do I do lose.....

No, making a lot of claim as if they were "facts", failing to back any of those "facts" with evidence, then admitting that you never had any evidence for those "facts", and then admitting that what you claimed were "facts" were really nothing more then your personal opinion based on your "feelings" and "hunches" means you lose.

[_antishock8]

Well, we should just cut to The Nehor's perfect world scenario. Ready? Ok. The Nehor would have a requirement of women to obtain permission from husbands for daily freedoms; beating of disobedient woman and girls; execution of homosexuals; engagement of polygamy and forced child marriages; death to apostate Mormons; and capital punishment for those “slander Mormonism.”