Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

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_Ray A

Re: Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

Post by _Ray A »

Mister Scratch wrote:Ultimately, it makes me wonder what the fundamental purpose of apologetics actually is: Is it meant to help wavering members? Or is it more about attacking and lashing out at critics?


Sometimes apologetics is like the Ark, other times it's like the Titanic.

Prior to 1990 and the subsequent rise of FARMS/FAIR/SHIELDS lots of anti-Mormon writing dominated the market. As Mike Ash observed:

Reed Durham, former director of the LDS Institute of Religion at the University of Utah, gave a speech in 1972 wherein he acknowledged that along with the threat of harm that the Tanners pose to the Church, they have done more to put together sources for research than anyone else outside of the Church. "They've become very important in understanding our Church history." Durham went on to explain that he purchased the reproductions from the Tanners because he wanted the "primary sources" that were part of his "heritage" and the Tanners were "the only ones producing" them. Quoting Lehi's statement of "opposition in all things," Durham said:

"I can't help but think that when they raise these issues it does something to us to have to defend... When I see something that counters what I've been taught or what I know or what I understand or what I feel, the way to counter research...unpleasant to me is not by sticking my head in the sand like an ostrich, but by more research. I may have to revamp, and knowledge sometimes is a dangerous thing. But I will revamp, and I will understand better my heritage. ...what I'm trying to say is that they have become, in a sense, catalysts to sharpen our own historical understanding. We've had to get on the stick and do some study, and do some homework that sometimes we haven't done."


That should be the real purpose of apologetics, and the critic has an important role to play:

Nearly all LDS apologists with whom I have conversed on the topic of my paper tell me the same thing: The accusations of critics have often prompted them to greater research, which resulted in a clearer understanding of the issues. Scott Faulring has estimated--in response to my queries--that about 25 to 30 percent of his research has been "motivated by the inaccurate or warped interpretation/presentation by our religious opponents." And, he notes, "it is a sad fact that sometimes our critics do 'get it right' but we ignore their findings because of who they are (Marquardt, Vogel, Tanner, etc.)."146

Stephen Ricks replied to my query: "I can say that my insights have been sharpened by responding to implicitly or explicitly anti-Mormon statements."147 And as Kevin Barney expressed to me:

I think we need a certain level of outside criticism. We're not very tolerant of "in-house" criticism, but we need some sort of criticism to cause us to rethink and reevaluate what we do, our literature, our doctrine, and so forth. Without such critiques, we could get mired in iconoclastic, provincial thought and practices. The best disinfectant is sunshine, as they say. If it were just Mormons in Utah, if the railroad never came, and we were left totally to our own devices, you and I would have multiple wives, we would believe Adam is our God, and blacks would not hold the priesthood.


Not all criticism is effective, and not all apologetics is effective. When it becomes ad hominem neither is effective.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

Post by _Some Schmo »

Ray A wrote: Sometimes apologetics is like the Ark, other times it's like the Titanic.

I agree; sometimes apologetics is pure fiction, other times it's a disaster.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_John Larsen
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Re: Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

Post by _John Larsen »

When I was a struggling member I avoided apologetics like the plague. I found the ad hominem attacks to be distasteful and I thought that apologists had an utter disregard for informal fallacies. Something I still think but before it upset me and know I find it amusing.

I also thought their arguments tended to be ad hoc and transparent. I was looking for a way to synthesize science, reason and faith and their one-off responses to criticism just didn’t cut it for me.
_beastie
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Re: Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

Post by _beastie »

Ray A wrote:
Sometimes apologetics is like the Ark, other times it's like the Titanic.

I agree; sometimes apologetics is pure fiction, other times it's a disaster.


Now that was funny.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_The Nehor
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Re: Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

Post by _The Nehor »

Mister Scratch wrote:Instead, I think that most questioning members go the route of Thunderchops, who was so disgusted by the way he and his wife were treated by Dr. Peterson that they both left the Church.


It's nice that you turn every idle guess you make into a thread but do you think you could make it more clear? Upon reading the gravitas you give your words one is almost tempted to think that you have evidence to support your inane ramblings.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

John Larsen wrote:When I was a struggling member I avoided apologetics like the plague. I found the ad hominem attacks to be distasteful and I thought that apologists had an utter disregard for informal fallacies. Something I still think but before it upset me and know I find it amusing.

I also thought their arguments tended to be ad hoc and transparent. I was looking for a way to synthesize science, reason and faith and their one-off responses to criticism just didn’t cut it for me.



When I was a struggling college student I avoided vegetables like the plague. I found the flavor to be distasteful and I thought that farmers had an utter disregard for good-tasting or healthy foods.

But how did I know all this considering I said I avoided them like the plague? And why didn't I mention any specific vegetables?

Something I still think but before it upset me and know I find it amusing.

[wasn't sure how to include this part in the parody.]
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Some Schmo wrote:
Ray A wrote: Sometimes apologetics is like the Ark, other times it's like the Titanic.

I agree; sometimes apologetics is pure fiction, other times it's a disaster.

Gotta give credit where it's due. That was a very good one, hehe
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_John Larsen
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Re: Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

Post by _John Larsen »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:
John Larsen wrote:When I was a struggling member I avoided apologetics like the plague. I found the ad hominem attacks to be distasteful and I thought that apologists had an utter disregard for informal fallacies. Something I still think but before it upset me and know I find it amusing.

I also thought their arguments tended to be ad hoc and transparent. I was looking for a way to synthesize science, reason and faith and their one-off responses to criticism just didn’t cut it for me.



When I was a struggling college student I avoided vegetables like the plague. I found the flavor to be distasteful and I thought that farmers had an utter disregard for good-tasting or healthy foods.

But how did I know all this considering I said I avoided them like the plague? And why didn't I mention any specific vegetables?

Something I still think but before it upset me and know I find it amusing.

[wasn't sure how to include this part in the parody.]


Like you're unsuccessful attempt to avoid vegetables, I ran into them incidentally. But mostly, I read them before I began to question seriously. But they always left me with more questions. It was when I was struggling that I avoided them because they made me feel distant from the apologists and thus distant from Mormonism. In short, apologetics didn't help me at all.
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

John Larsen wrote:Like you're unsuccessful attempt to avoid vegetables, I ran into them incidentally. But mostly, I read them before I began to question seriously. But they always left me with more questions. It was when I was struggling that I avoided them because they made me feel distant from the apologists and thus distant from Mormonism. In short, apologetics didn't help me at all.



*waiting for examples*


Not all apologetic arguments are created equal.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Mister Scratch
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Re: Online Apologetics and "Collateral Damage"

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:I think that most questioning members go the route of Thunderchops, who was so disgusted by the way he and his wife were treated by Dr. Peterson that they both left the Church.

Who is "Thunderchops"? I've never heard of anybody by that name.


He posts over at FLAK. I first heard him mention you as a reason for his exit from the Church on Kevin Graham's old messageboard.

But, the fact that you don't remember him ought to tell you something. Namely, that there are undoubtedly countless faceless and nameless individuals who've been driven away from the Church by your silly apologetic crusade to besmirch and assault critics.

So, if you want to carry on with your name-calling, your "Master Scartch"-this, or your "you are an idiot that," you'll just be aiding my effort to combat apologetics. It actually pleases me very much when you stoop to such tactics. You are undermining apologetics, and you are (inadvertently, I guess) helping to destroy the LDS Church. When people investigating the Church log onto the Internet and type in "Mormon discussions," guess what they'll see? They will see a certain "Daniel Peterson" saying things like, "you are a buffoon!" and "you are a goofball!" and "The though of Scratch makes me wish I had my assault rifle on hand." Needless to say, this brings a wide smile to my lips.

Carry on, Professor Peterson! These apostates are "disposable"! The destroyed testimonies are unfortunate casualties in the grand war against critics!

Mister Scratch wrote:DCP admitted in the Kerry Shirts video that, in actuality, he would like to dole out even more harm, but his sense of...etiquette?....prevents him from doing so.

Those familiar with Scartchian rhetoric will scarcely need to be told that I "admitted" nothing of the sort.


Very well: you stated it forthrightly.
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