I will Believe the Book of Mormon as history when...

[_Jersey Girl]

Can we spin this question around?

Lately, around here at least, if Mr. S wasn't duelling with DCP, what would keep DCP occupied?

What would keep Scratch occupied?

[_Daniel Peterson]

does he not see apologetics as a viable part of his church

Well Nightengale, I don't want to put words in Mister Scratch's mouth, but I don't think I'm being to bold when I say that, no, Mister Scratch does not see apologetics as a viable part of his church. ;)

Does Master Scartch see anything as a viable part of the Church of which he's evidently a member?

Possibly he does. But I've never seen anything to suggest it.

[_Mister Scratch]

I just wonder why this is happening? Does Mr. S not have that fellow feeling for another member, does he not see apologetics as a viable part of his church, is he just goofing around or what? I would think that "critics" can take a vacation and just leave Scratch to it.

Oh, believe me, Nightingale: I have a tremendous amount of fellow-feeling for the many good members of the LDS Church. On the other hand, I think that apologetics is rotten to the core, and that it basically serves no good function whatsoever. (At least the well-organized, well-funded apologetics, like FARMS and FAIR. Some "rogue," or "maverick" efforts seems much better to me, but then again the apologists have stirred up so much acrimony that it is now difficult for these people to exist.)

[_Daniel Peterson]

I think that apologetics is rotten to the core, and that it basically serves no good function whatsoever.

You have to understand, Nightingale, that he's not actually very familiar with the relevant literature.

[_Nightingale]

Thanks for your responses. I understand better now.

I was getting confused in thinking that Mr. Scratch was attacking the church.

On re-read I guess my question ("does he not believe that apologetics is a viable part of this church?") sounds naïve. I see I was also assuming that the Mormon Church accepts and condones the apologetic efforts on its behalf; hence, church and apologetics glumped together in my mind.

In the Christian denominations in which I have been involved (mainstream EV) at least, apologetics is seen as a worthy endeavour. Mostly in that line I have experienced debates re evolution vs. creationism. The debaters are on good terms with each other, even friends, or at least respect each other's scholarly efforts. The believers don't speak for a specific denomination but rather for a certain broad swathe of Christian belief. I always found the debates to be informative, lively, substantive and friendly.

That was my prior experience and expectations of apologetics.

Also, publications of various churches contain essays from members and non-members discussing the various issues. Not all members automatically toe the party line. Often the essays point out questions, doubts and difficulties about doctrine and practice and thought. It is healthy and instructive, in my view.

I think I need to view the Mormon apologetic efforts as completely separate from the Mormon Church. That is what both entities claim anyway, right? Except it gets confusing...

[_Gadianton]

I think I need to view the Mormon apologetic efforts as completely separate from the Mormon Church. That is what both entities claim anyway, right? Except it gets confusing...

I understand this, it's very confusing, especially when one follows the money trail. And yes, they do claim they are totally separate from the church. But they don't act like it. Just look at poor Rod Meldrum, how he's been attacked by FAIR. No, they don't claim to speak for the church, but they sure hold nothing back when it comes to accusing Meldrum of apostasy, they try to make a guy who simply believes the spirit confirms truth and has confirmed the truth of his theories which basically support what traditional Mormons have believed all along and make it look like he's "recieving revelation for the church" and essentially starting his own cult. They accuse him viciously of misusing church property and all kinds of indescretions that are frankly, none of their business, but the business of his ecclesiastical leaders.

So yeah, they can throw in all the disclaimers they want, but they do that mainly so they can't be held to any one position in case that position turns out to be have been a bad move and they need to change it in the future. When push comes to shove, you can see how they try to force their beliefs on everyone as if they speak for the church.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Who are "they"?

The Mopologetic hive mind?

[_harmony]

In my world, outside the Zion Curtain, you can count on one hand the number of people who even know what apologetics is, let alone who the players are in Mormon apologetics. Their exposure to anything apologetic comes through the Ensign (which isn't much). They take "follow the prophet" seriously (to the extent that I was once called into the bishop's office--back when I would go when called in-- to explain my remark that the prophet didn't put his feet under my table, so he didn't know what problems I had in my life). They avoid Sunstone and Dialogue as evil publications. FARMS is what the guy across the road does; FAIR is what we hope the refs at the high school football games are. BYU is the best college on earth, with BYU-I as a close second.

Personally, I think that what the vast majority of active members in my 5 stake area think. Apologetics, especially LDS apologetics, is simply a nonstarter.

[_Joey]

You asked for an example of pro-Book of Mormon arguments published in a non-Mormon venue. I gave you one

No, I did not. I've been asking for the past four years where this fermenting scholarship of Clark, Sorenson, and now I suppose Givens and Welch (although the list seems to grow daily on the fertile paper of FARMS), where these great works have convinced anyone to teach about the history, in a H-I-S-T-O-R-Y course, the city of Zarahemlah, the river of Sidon and the peoples/cultures of the Jaradites-Nephites-Lamanites-Mulekelites???

Please feel free to provide an example or some level of evidence that would be accepted outside the metro Provo-Orem area if you can.

If I had the time you had in working for the "prophet", I could spend more time here. Unfortunately, I am my own employee and have to work for a real "profit". Editing publications that, while aren't so much rejected but rather ignored, yield the same prophetic results when you deal in the real world. Hense I have to make both sense and cents to those who employ me.

Its not like I could, in the real world, just slap up a shingle of "Peterson Hamblin" and expect to make a living printing reviews of Harry Potter, or perhaps as you seem to specialize in, The Wizard of OZ.

Anyway, those history courses covering Zarahemlah, Sidon, and all those hebrew tribes in north america if you could please,

[_Chap]

Anyway, those history courses covering Zarahemlah, Sidon, and all those hebrew tribes in north america if you could please,

Need DCP really be called away from his many important commitments to answer such an elementary query?

"Zarahemlah, Sidon, and all those hebrew tribes in north america" play no part as places or people on a par with Athens or Julius Caesar in any history course in any American university. That is because, apart from some members of the CoJCoLDS, absolutely nobody believes they ever existed.