MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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_TAK
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

Scott Lloyd
The authors have laid out the evidence in the book. I've given you page numbers and an end note for reference. You now bear the burden, and to meet it you must deal with the documented sources they have cited, not just spew empty derision.


Scott - there is no proof Lee’s account was altered by his attorney; only speculation on the part of the authors.
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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_ScottLloyd
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _ScottLloyd »

TAK wrote:Scott Lloyd
The authors have laid out the evidence in the book. I've given you page numbers and an end note for reference. You now bear the burden, and to meet it you must deal with the documented sources they have cited, not just spew empty derision.


Scott - there is no proof Lee’s account was altered by his attorney; only speculation on the part of the authors.

It's not mere speculation. The authors have laid out their reasons for drawing this conclusion. Again, it requires more than vacuous derision to refute them.
_TAK
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

Scott
It's not mere speculation.


Yes it is.

Scott
The authors have laid out their reasons for drawing this conclusion.


And none of the reasons were based upon any direct proof..

Scott
Again, it requires more than vacuous derision to refute them.


No it requires proof..
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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_Brother of Mahonri
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Brother of Mahonri »

TAK wrote:Scott - there is no proof Lee’s account was altered by his attorney; only speculation on the part of the authors.


It's not mere speculation. The authors have laid out their reasons for drawing this conclusion. Again, it requires more than vacuous derision to refute them.


The only reason (singular not reasonS like you claim)mentioned by the authors was that the lawyer was getting royalties from the book so he had a motive to lie to make the book more sensational and thus more marketable.

That's speculation that he lied and changed what Lee said. Not proof that made any changes. Turley ety al are speculating. They might be right, they might be wrong, but its still mere speculation that CAN be dismissed as such without any proof to support it.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Brother of Mahonri
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Brother of Mahonri »

sorry - messed up that quote - the second paragraph above is Scott - after that is my reply to TAK/Scotts discussion
_Ray A

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Ray A »

TAK wrote:Ray did you check Amazon,
I believe they have it..
http://www.amazon.com/John-Doyle-Lee-Pi ... 236&sr=1-2


I was hoping to find it on the Net, TAK, but it looks like I'll have to use my Amazon account.
_ScottLloyd
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _ScottLloyd »

Brother of Mahonri wrote:
TAK wrote:Scott - there is no proof Lee’s account was altered by his attorney; only speculation on the part of the authors.


It's not mere speculation. The authors have laid out their reasons for drawing this conclusion. Again, it requires more than vacuous derision to refute them.


The only reason (singular not reasonS like you claim)mentioned by the authors was that the lawyer was getting royalties from the book so he had a motive to lie to make the book more sensational and thus more marketable.

That's speculation that he lied and changed what Lee said. Not proof that made any changes. Turley ety al are speculating. They might be right, they might be wrong, but its still mere speculation that CAN be dismissed as such without any proof to support it.


Have you read the book? Have you examined the sources documented in the end note?

It is more than speculation; it is a conclusion drawn from evidence. You can ignore the evidence if you choose, but you cannot honestly act as though it doesn't exist. If you are going to make arguments, you are accountable for the evidence.

During his lifetime, Lee repeatedly denied Young's involvement (which denials are documented in the book), including in a statement made to a Salt Lake Tribune reporter just before his execution, a statement made after the purported statements in the published confession. Lee was minutes away from his death; he had no reason to continue to protect Young, if, as TAK speculated, that is indeed what he was doing.

If anything, Lee could be expected to have been bitter enough at that point, with nothing to lose, to have blamed the whole thing on Young; he did not do that.

Why do the published confessions contradict Lee's repeated statements in his lifetime? The only plausible reason that has been put forth is the not-insignificant motive on the part of the attorney to boost book sales, thus playing on the pervasive anti-Mormon sentiment desiring to pin responsibility on Brigham Young.
_TAK
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

"ScottLloyd"

During his lifetime, Lee repeatedly denied Young's involvement (which denials are documented in the book), including in a statement made to a Salt Lake Tribune reporter just before his execution, a statement made after the purported statements in the published confession. Lee was minutes away from his death; he had no reason to continue to protect Young, if, as TAK speculated, that is indeed what he was doing.


Cry all you want but its speculation. Not proof.

As to the last words by Lee - Interestingly, the authors do not dispute Lee’s last words that Geo. A Smith was preaching hatred towards emigrants. Emigrants!
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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_ScottLloyd
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _ScottLloyd »

TAK wrote:"ScottLloyd"

During his lifetime, Lee repeatedly denied Young's involvement (which denials are documented in the book), including in a statement made to a Salt Lake Tribune reporter just before his execution, a statement made after the purported statements in the published confession. Lee was minutes away from his death; he had no reason to continue to protect Young, if, as TAK speculated, that is indeed what he was doing.


Cry all you want but its speculation. Not proof.


Dissemble all you want, but it's a solid conclusion drawn from evidence. Not speculation.

As to the last words by Lee - Interestingly, the authors do not dispute Lee’s last words that Geo. A Smith was preaching hatred towards emigrants. Emigrants!


The quoted statement by Lee in the book is, "He was visiting all the settlements and preaching against the emigrants." But he said in reference to the Fancher party, "I don't know that he meant those particular emigrants."

And if he was indicting George A. Smith, why didn't he bother to do the same with Brigham Young while he was at it and could still draw breath to do so? I notice you still don't have a good answer for that, TAK. You'll have to go back to the "speculation" mantra, I guess.
_TAK
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

Scott
And if he was indicting George A. Smith, why didn't he bother to do the same with Brigham Young while he was at it and could still draw breath to do so?


I don’t know. I can only speculate like the authors did.


Scott
The quoted statement by Lee in the book is, "He was visiting all the settlements and preaching against the emigrants." But he said in reference to the Fancher party, "I don't know that he meant those particular emigrants."


The issue I am pointing to is the tip toeing around Geo A Smith by the authors. It’s acknowledged that he was preaching against the emigrants and yet the authors hold him harmless in the massacre.

What I find interesting is that while much is made of “good men do evil things”, I did not get a sense that there were many of the saints who were actually in favor of the attack. In fact other than Haight and Lee – possibly Higbee; who else was in favor initially to attack the emigrants?
The authors really do not make a very good case for anyone but a couple of leaders.

They do make a good case that people were opposed and wanted BY’s direction. Which leads back to GASmith’s purpose for being down there. If he was preaching hatred of the emigrants, we know there were private meetings between Smith and Haight and Lee so it follows that Smith may have wanted harm done to the emigrants and the leaders in Southern Utah were following orders. Which by the way does support Lee’s written confession that was published after his death.
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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