MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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_Pokatator
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

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TAK wrote:
Pokatator wrote:TAK who are you trying insult here?

I suggested the Wizard of Oz for Pederson in the L-Skinny thread.


Please forgive.. Certainly the "man behind the curtain" is appro..

I thought Mr Potato Head bore a striking resemblence to DCP and I don't believe I am the first to draw that connection.


I need a new plastic mustache and some sunglasses.
I think it would be morally right to lie about your religion to edit the article favorably.
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_ScottLloyd
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _ScottLloyd »

TAK wrote:
Scott
Then you hardly grasp it. It's about mob mentality. It's about a confluence of circumstances, timing and war-time hysteria creating a tinderbox in which otherwise decent people will do horrendous things. Think My Lai Massacre.


I think you are the one missing the facts.. The authors failed to show anybody but a few leaders who initiated this action. There was no mob mentality that started this .. Those that committed the massacre were largely forced to participate.

Read Ray's quotation of Turley above, where the psychology of group violence is spelled out. Two, maybe three, men could hardly force an entire unit of a militia to commit mass murder if the members of the unit weren't pretty well dialed into the notion to begin with.

Whether or not you get mob mentality from your reading of the book, I'm confident most reasonable readers will.

Speaking of Indians attacking emigrants:

In letter to U. S. Army Captain Stewart van Vliet dated September 7,
1857 Brigham Young wrote :

"If the government dare to force the issue, I shall not hold the Indians by the
wrist any longer. If the issue comes, you may tell the government to stop all
emigration across the continent, for the Indians will kill all who attempt it."

Coincidence?? I don't think so.


Nothing new here. This is merely an expression of Young's war-time policy to cease intervening in skirmishes between emigrants and Indians, skirmishes that were often caused by the reckless behavior of emigrants themselves.

I don't see it as an unreasonable policy, considering the fact that the White House had sent an armed force to invade the territory and cut off mail service, and had not disclosed the intent of this ostensibly hostile move.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_ScottLloyd
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _ScottLloyd »

TAK wrote:
It should be clear they really have no desire to actually discuss the book or the events ..

Huh? I'm one of the tiny few on this board who actually have discussed the book. And the thread I started several weeks ago on the MA&D board, and which is still going, is based on discussion of the book's content, unlike this exercise in vacuity.
_TAK
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

ScottLloyd wrote:
TAK wrote:
It should be clear they really have no desire to actually discuss the book or the events ..

Huh? I'm one of the tiny few on this board who actually have discussed the book. And the thread I started several weeks ago on the MA&D board, and which is still going, is based on discussion of the book's content, unlike this exercise in vacuity.


Scott
With moronic comment such as “And that's just the point: There's hardly more behind the conjecture about George A. Smith than there is behind Planet Zarkon.” you clearly are not interested in discussing the topic.
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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_ScottLloyd
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _ScottLloyd »

TAK wrote:Scott
With moronic comment such as “And that's just the point: There's hardly more behind the conjecture about George A. Smith than there is behind Planet Zarkon.” you clearly are not interested in discussing the topic.

See above, where I dealt with your misreading of the intent behind the quote from Brigham Young about ceasing to intervene when passing emigrants angered the Indians.

Apparently, you thought the statement of Brigham Young was evidence of your far-fetched notion about George A. Smith going south to stir up Indian tribes against the Fancher train. Guess what: It isn't.
_harmony
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _harmony »

ScottLloyd wrote:Huh? I'm one of the tiny few on this board who actually have discussed the book. And the thread I started several weeks ago on the MA&D board, and which is still going, is based on discussion of the book's content, unlike this exercise in vacuity.


I'm sure it's escaped you, but this thread isn't about the content of the book. It's about the process under which it was written. So why would anyone (who wasn't trying to derail the thread) be discussing the content?

When a thread is opened up about the content of the book, you'll no doubt want to get on board with that discussion.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

Scott:
Read Ray's quotation of Turley above, where the psychology of group violence is spelled out. Two, maybe three, men could hardly force an entire unit of a militia to commit mass murder if the members of the unit weren't pretty well dialed into the notion to begin with.



Yes two or three men would not be able to force 50 or 60 to so something this heinous if they were not “well dialed into the notion to begin with” as you say. I think that is where Smith comes in preaching against the emigrants with as Gene Session terms “incendiary” remarks. I think Blood Atonement also comes into play (Did you note that a third of the victims had their throats slit? ) as well as Innocent Blood - two topics that were dominated the era during the time but neither topic received much attention from the authors.

The problem you don’t seem to be grasping what started the massacre? So go back and read pages 134 and 135. That is the genesis of the conflict. There was no mob. Just a couple of Cedar City leaders who initiated the action. The authors do a poor job explaining what Haight’s motive was other than a couple of incidences that occurred in the hour the emigrants were in Cedar City. That and reference to some rumors and he’s ready to kill a 120 men women and children? I don’t think so. When you consider Lee’s last confession that this action was initiated by Smith it then makes sense. Haight and Lee were following Smith’s instructions.

I posted the quote:

"If the government dare to force the issue, I shall not hold the Indians by the
wrist any longer. If the issue comes, you may tell the government to stop all
emigration across the continent, for the Indians will kill all who attempt it."

Clearly Brigham Young is at the very least trying to bluff Captain van Vliet. BY is losing his power and so he try’s to retain it by threatening the Government in several ways including cutting off the emigrants coming through Utah- something the US Government wants very badly. So it follows he sends Smith is sent to So. Utah to influence the Saints and Indians against the emigrants. Smith even returns with Indians to discuss strategies against Americans and we know how it turns out.

by the way, Brigham Young was the US Indian Superintendent he was responsible for the protection of emigrants. Even if he did not order this, the fact his willingness to allow Indians to murder and steal by his own inactions is reprehensible.
Last edited by Maureen on Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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_TAK
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

harmony wrote:
ScottLloyd wrote:Huh? I'm one of the tiny few on this board who actually have discussed the book. And the thread I started several weeks ago on the MA&D board, and which is still going, is based on discussion of the book's content, unlike this exercise in vacuity.


I'm sure it's escaped you, but this thread isn't about the content of the book. It's about the process under which it was written. So why would anyone (who wasn't trying to derail the thread) be discussing the content?

When a thread is opened up about the content of the book, you'll no doubt want to get on board with that discussion.


Sorry Harmony but I have been discussign the actual content ( I have read the book) as did Trevor and I think others.
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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_Ray A

Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _Ray A »

I'm inclined to agree with harmony to some extent. The title of this thread, started by Boaz, is "MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book", and one of the questions posed in the OP is:

Why were these three employees of LDS Inc given unprecedented access to LDS historical archives but non LDS authors have not???


That's a question many of us asked throughout the thread.
_TAK
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Re: MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book

Post by _TAK »

Ray A wrote:I'm inclined to agree with harmony to some extent. The title of this thread, started by Boaz, is "MILLIONS spent by LDS Inc on new MMM book", and one of the questions posed in the OP is:

Why were these three employees of LDS Inc given unprecedented access to LDS historical archives but non LDS authors have not???


That's a question many of us asked throughout the thread.


I don't have a problem moving the discussion to another thread and presumably let this one die..








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God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


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