Steve Young's wife opposes prop 8 with $25K

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Neither sounds like much of a choice to me ... which is precisely my point.

Perhaps you should have made your point differently. God's plan has never been about removing the spiritual, emotional, or other consequences of our choices.

Agreed. But what I'm talking about is trying forcibly to prevent a member's free will to act in a way that leads to those consequences. Leave it to the member and God.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Have you been to the temple lately? A particular oath therein binds any faithful member to do whatever he/she is told by the Brethren.

Uhhhhh......no.

Then this explains your naïvété on this issue.

[_krose]

Principle: Homosexuality is an abomination in the sight of God.

Act on this Principle how you see fit.

But only male homosexuality is an abomination. Apparently the macho Old Testament deity, being a dude, doesn't mind a little lesbian action so much, but is really threatened by gay guys.

[_The Nehor]

Principle: Homosexuality is an abomination in the sight of God.

Act on this Principle how you see fit.

But only male homosexuality is an abomination. Apparently the macho Old Testament deity, being a dude, doesn't mind a little lesbian action so much, but is really threatened by gay guys.

Hmmm....CFR?

[_krose]

But only male homosexuality is an abomination. Apparently the macho Old Testament deity, being a dude, doesn't mind a little lesbian action so much, but is really threatened by gay guys.

Hmmm....CFR?

Okay... Where did you get the term 'abomination,' anyway? Leviticus? Can you point out an Old Testament scripture that says that girl-on-girl action is an abomination?

[_moksha]

Okay... Where did you get the term 'abomination,' anyway?

What if the two girls were Rosie O'Donell and Joan Rivers?

[_asbestosman]

In other words, when the prophet speaks the thinking has been done.

No. When the prophet speaks, God's work has been revealed, but it is up to you to decide whether to believe that's the case.

Anyhow, the thinking isn't done when the prophet speaks, rather the debate is over. You still need to choose for yourself.

In other words, if someone gets a personal revelation or feels inspired to disagree with a prophet, they are not in tune with God.

Yes--not that I expect everyone to agree with me on that point. Everyone get to choose for himself or herself. They simply cannot choose the consequences for that choice. It's kind of nice really.

Obey.

An excellent idea! ;)

[_asbestosman]

Leave it to the member and God.

However, I would say that leaving it to God also includes leaving it to those He has designated to handle such things in His stead here on Earth (i.e. the prophets, apostles, etc.). Furthermore, excommunication helps to protect the good name of the church and promote repentance. It doesn't force anything. If you don't believe, then excommunication should be no more scary than fearing that you'll be sucked down the drain with the bath water.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Leave it to the member and God.

However, I would say that leaving it to God also includes leaving it to those He has designated to handle such things in His stead here on Earth (i.e. the prophets, apostles, etc.).

But plenty of things do (and should) remain between the individual and God. We get into dangerous waters if we allow fallible men step into the place of God, in my opinion.

Furthermore, excommunication helps to protect the good name of the church ...

This could be applied to anything, including one's right to expression.

... and promote repentance.

Leave that to the Lord; He's the only one who can forgive.

It doesn't force anything.

It does if you believe.

If you don't believe, then excommunication should be no more scary than fearing that you'll be sucked down the drain with the bath water.

True enough. I'm more worried about those who do believe or who want to be part of the Church (usually out of family concerns, even if they don't "believe," whatever that means).

[_truth dancer]

Hi Abman... :-)

If a child predator tells a six year old child she has to go with him or he will kill her family and burn her house down, and so she goes with him, how much "free choice" does this little girl truly have?

While you may say she freely chose to go with the predator hence her abuse is her fault, I would suggest there is more to the story.

So, God says you must follow the prophet or else you will go to Hell, (or not go to heaven and never be with your family and loved ones for eternity, etc. etc., which some would say is the same thing).

I don't see this as God setting up a system of free choice at all.

:-(

~td~