Journey of Faith DVDs

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_beastie
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Re: Journey of Faith DVDs

Post by _beastie »

Interestingly, and in my view somewhat oddly, Teotihuacan was mentioned at length. I suppose they wanted to mention it due to the fact that they think it provides a good hit for the cement cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon, which apologists say critics used to focus on (I am not familiar with that particular criticism, but will take their word for it.)

Teotihuacan was an immense polity – in fact, up until the Aztec polity, the most powerful polity of all time in ancient Mesoamerica. It was to the north, outside of the Book of Mormon region, according to Sorenson’s geography, which the dvd used. It is also one of the most famous Mesoamerican cities, and lots of information is available regarding it.

http://archaeology.asu.edu/teo/intro/intrteo.htm

Teotihuacan arose as a new religious center in the Mexican Highland, around the time of Christ. Although its incipient period (the first two centuries B.C.) is poorly understood, archaeological data show that the next two centuries (Tzacualli to Miccaotli phases; A.D. 1-200) were characterized by monumental construction, during which Teotihuacan quickly became the largest and most populous urban center in the New World. By this time, the city already appears to have expanded to approximately 20 square km, with about 60,000 to 80,000 inhabitants (Millon 1981:221). The development of the city seems to have involved inter-site population movements, exploitation of natural resources, an increase in agricultural production, technological inventions, establishment of trading systems and other kinds of socio-political organizations, and attractive belief systems. By the fourth century, unmistakable influences of Teotihuacan were felt throughout most parts of Mesoamerica. Teotihuacan was the sixth largest city in the world during its period of greatest prosperity, according to an estimated population of 125,000 (Millon 1993:33). The city seems to have functioned for centuries as a well-developed urban center until its rather sudden collapse, possibly in the seventh century. The place was called Teotihuacan by Nahuatl speakers several centuries after the city's fall, but its original name, the language or languages spoken there, and the ethnic groups who built the city are still unknown.


First, the concrete issue. Teotihuacan used a known Mesoamerican building technique with such enthusiasm that they succeeded in destroying their polity – the technique of plastering monuments and buildings. The plaster was created by burning limestone, which required an intense heat, constant fire, and huge amounts of wood. This eventually resulted in the deforestation of the area, which created an ecological disaster that destroyed the polity.

This creates an exciting “hit” for some apologists, due to these verses in the Book of Mormon, Helaman 3:

1 And now it came to pass in the *forty and third year of the reign of the judges, there was no contention among the people of Nephi save it were a little pride which was in the church, which did cause some little dissensions among the people, which affairs were settled in the ending of the forty and third year.
2 And there was no contention among the people in the forty and fourth year; neither was there much contention in the forty and fifth year.
3 And it came to pass in the *forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land.
4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.
5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.
6 And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the destruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called desolate.
7 And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly expert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell.
8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.
9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in tents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.
10 And it came to pass as timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, they did send forth much by the way of shipping.
11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.


The apparent problem is that the Book of Mormon claims that the people became experts in making houses out of cement due to the lack of timber, and whenever a tree grew, they used it to build buildings. This is completely backward from what occurred in Teotihuacan. The deforestation of Teotihuacan was the result of the excessive use of plaster for their buildings. They did not use plaster/concrete due to lack of timber.

In addition to trying to create this link, some of the experts seem to be making another connection as well:

Archaeological investigations there (Teotihuacan) have placed the rise of that city at, interestingly, the time when Nephite immigrants are coming out of the land southward in the middle of the first century BC.


This one really left me scratching my head. What was he trying to say? Was he insinuating that the Nephites actually either founded or contributed to its rise as a power? I really have no idea what the point of that comment was. The idea that Teotihuacan could have been influenced by Nephites in any way is outlandish. Its powerful cultural imprint is clear and marked throughout the rest of Mesoamerica, and that imprint had nothing to do with some Judeo Christian transplant.

But the experts went on to assert that:

The Nephites, as long as they were contemporary to Teotihuacan, they would definitely had known about each other.


And later statements seemed to insinuate that the Nephites were smack in the middle between Teotihuacan and powerful Mesoamerican polities like Tikal, and that’s why they were destroyed.

What strikes me so strange about this is that it makes the Nephites a very significant force to deal with, hardly some small, insignificant, unnoticeable polity hidden away within the larger culture. In fact, I would cite this is the biggest problem in this entire dvd – it all presented the Nephites as a powerful, significant polity in Mesoamerica. This is a problem for the reason that this powerful polity has left no apparent trace or impact on Mesoamerica. If the Nephite polity were so powerful that the Teotihuacan were aware of them, and targeted them for destruction to get to Tikal, then they would have had an impact on the rest of Mesoamerica, and the hard fact is that the history of ancient Mesoamerica was not impacted whatsoever by the Nephites – otherwise we would find evidence of their existence.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_harmony
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Re: Journey of Faith DVDs

Post by _harmony »

Don't ya hate it when someone who actually knows the subject shows up and starts quoting scholarly sources? Looks like the apologists need to do a little more homework.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Journey of Faith DVDs

Post by _Jersey Girl »

JustMe wrote:How much did the purchase of those DVDs set you back?

Truly astonishingly, only $17.95 each....... an amazing price, I thought. Thanks for asking.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
[/quote]

I am thrilled to pay that. They are very well done, very well indeed. Stimulating, professional, absolutely gorgeous, and significantly serious the the historicity of the Book of Mormon.[/quote]

Alrighty then...what would I, a mere gentile never-Mo, find of interest in such a DVD?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Journey of Faith DVDs

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

truth dancer wrote:I thought apologists were upset because Meldrum was selling DVDs... something about priestcrafts? ;-)

I think those who are upset are upset because he seems to be making a living from from his filmed lecture, and because (though I can't confirm this) he was possibly selling his DVDs via appearances in LDS chapels.

Maybe you think that tickets to the Middle East and to Guatemala and camera crews and film editing and lodging in Oman and Jerusalem and Tikal and transporation of people and equipment to remote wilderness ruins are free?

-dcp
apologist and "chapel Mormon"
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Journey of Faith DVDs

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:Don't ya hate it when someone who actually knows the subject shows up and starts quoting scholarly sources? Looks like the apologists need to do a little more homework.

Beastie should have been on the doctoral committees of these idiots.

The pathetic scholars who examined them surely didn't do their jobs!

It's no wonder that the Mesoamericanists and others who show up in the two Journey of Faith DVDs avoid scholarly venues like MDB.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Journey of Faith DVDs

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Jersey Girl wrote:Alrighty then...what would I, a mere gentile never-Mo, find of interest in such a DVD?

I think you'd find them quite interesting.

And you might also be interested in the non-LDS-oriented spin-off that we created parallel to the first Journey of Faith film, entitled Golden Road. It's about the ancient frankincense trail, which linked the cities of the Levant with Yemen and Oman -- and which, in my opinion, was the trail largely followed by Lehi and his party from Jerusalem along the edge of the Arabian Peninsula.

(The Omani government is currently preparing an Arabic-language version of Golden Road for broadcast within Oman and on television elsewhere throughout the Arab world.)
_beastie
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Re: Journey of Faith DVDs

Post by _beastie »

Beastie should have been on the doctoral committees of these idiots.

The pathetic scholars who examined them surely didn't do their jobs!

It's no wonder that the Mesoamericanists and others who show up in the two Journey of Faith DVDs avoid scholarly venues like MDB.


By all means, show where my analysis was in error. Since the folks on the DVDs have the degrees, and I'm just a layperson, it shouldn't be hard to do. Have at it.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Journey of Faith DVDs

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

You win, beastie.

I give up. You're right.

Your reading of the film is meticulously accurate and your analysis spot on.

I surrender.
_beastie
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Re: Journey of Faith DVDs

Post by _beastie »

You win, beastie.

I give up. You're right.

Your reading of the film is meticulously accurate and your analysis spot on.

I surrender.


Stop playing the diversion game, DCP. Show where my analysis was incorrect. Show where I incorrectly cited scholars on the same topic.

I'm on my way to my bf's house so I may not be back on for a while, but I look forward to you actually backing up your assertion that I'm in error.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Journey of Faith DVDs

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

You win, beastie.

I give up. You're right.

Your reading of the film is meticulously accurate and your analysis spot on.

I surrender.
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