Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

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_dartagnan
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _dartagnan »

Since his heroic return from 'Nam, has John McCain handwritten anything? Has he used a phone keypad? Has he initiated or terminated a phone call?

Surely you understand there are varying levels of disability, especially with the use of the hands. I've had my thumb broken and I was able to write (poorly) but typing was out of the question. My hand was in a cast, so my four fingers were like one big useless clump, which is kinda like what we see with McCain. When I see McCain shake hands with people and the way he always has his writs at a particular angle, I easily see how a disability would make writing easier than typing. But all of this is beside the point isn't it? Obama implied that McCain couldn't send emails because he is just an old fart stuck in the stone age. This is dishonest to say the least.

John McCain was 31 years old when he was brutally checked in to the Hanoi Hilton. He didn't know how to type then, and, by his own admission, he doesn't know how to type now—irrespective of the horrific trauma that he endured.

I don't get your point. The argument wasn't that he didn't "know how to type." And what would that mean anyway? Type properly? I can type 65 words a minute and yet I peck away like a chicken. I never learned to type using the orthodox method either. But the argument was that he can't type or send an email, strongly suggesting that the reason for this has to do with his age and stubborness. This is demosntrably false and absolutely dishonest given the fact that it is due to his disability.

And frankly I am shocked that so many Obama defenders are trying to save Obama by suggesting McCain has been lying about the extent of his disability! Apparently the idea that Obama engaged in smear politics, just doesn't quite register.

Neither you nor I know the extent of John McCain's wartime disabilities.

Well, I do actually. You see, this little known fact had already been leaked to the public many years ago, albeit without the malicious implications that the Obama campaign has cooked up:
McCain gets emotional at the mention of military families needing food stamps or veterans lacking health care. The outrage comes from inside: McCain’s severe war injuries prevent him from combing his hair, typing on a keyboard, or tying his shoes. Friends marvel at McCain’s encyclopedic knowledge of sports. He’s an avid fan - Ted Williams is his hero - but he can’t raise his arm above his shoulder to throw a baseball.

After Vietnam, McCain had Ann Lawrence, a physical therapist, help him regain flexibility in his leg, which had been frozen in an extended position by a shattered knee. It was the only way he could hope to resume his career as a Navy flier, but Lawrence said the treatment, taken twice a week for six months, was excruciatingly painful.

"He endured it, he wouldn’t settle for less,” said Lawrence, who rejoiced with McCain when he passed the Navy physical. "I have never seen such toughness and resolve.”
http://graphics.boston.com/news/politic ... ult+.shtml

The same factoid was published in Forbes Magazine in 2000,
In certain ways, McCain was a natural Web candidate. Chairman of the Senate Telecommunications Subcommittee and regarded as the U.S. Senate’s savviest technologist, McCain is an inveterate devotee of email. His nightly ritual is to read his email together with his wife, Cindy. The injuries he incurred as a Vietnam POW make it painful for McCain to type. Instead, he dictates responses that his wife types on a laptop. “She’s a whiz on the keyboard, and I’m so laborious,” McCain admits.
http://www.forbes.com/asap/2000/0529/053_print.html

Now please explain for us why the McCains would share this information with the media, long before Obama's ad, if it were not true? I mean what is the point of lying about something like this eight years ago? This is hardly a "gotcha" for Obama and it cannot be said to be ad hoc by the McCains. If McCain's critics think Obama has a valid point here, then it is because they are ignorant of the fact that this was already an established fact, long ago. The only difference between the facts and Obama's version, is that Obama belittles a war hero and ridicules him for a disability he earned during war time. I'm not sure it is even possible for a politician to go lower than this.
But we do know that he can write, use a phone keypad, and handle the dexterous demands of a phone call.

"Dexterous demands"? Come on Brent. Just look at the photos of him shaking hands, writing and using the phone, and then you tell me if you see anything abnormal here:
Image
Image

So in these photos, am I to believe he is just acting like he has issues with his hands, so he could use it as an excuse, just in case someone finds out he never wrote an email?

I think it is silly to argue that someone who can't type mustn't be able to do anything with their hands. This is an extraordinarily poor argument. Typing involves more than two dozen finger muscles and requires flexibility in more than two dozen different joints. Try taping four of your fingers together for a day and see how much you can accomplish throughout a day. You'd be surprised what you can lift, wiggle, write, etc. But typing, while technically possible, would be tedious and impractical.
Given those skills, McCain's computer illiteracy is inexcusable in such an innovative era of software accessibility.

As Trevor said, I think you're really grasping at straws here. Even if I grant everything you said here as fact, show me something that matters. Because this ain't it.
So, Barrack Obama wants to sully the minds of children with explicit sex?

That wasn't what the ad said. The ad said he supported "comprehensive sex education" for children who had yet to learn to read. This is a fact, period.

There's more to the story...

Sure there is. But nothing that changes the fact that the statement in the McCain ad is essentially true. CNN tried saying this was a lie because the "intention" was to protect children from pedophiles. Of this I have no doubt, but the fact is the curriculum went well beyond what was necessary to protect kids from sexual predators. For crying out loud, the bill used the same exact terminology as the ad: "comprehensive sex education."

Yes, the curriculum is explicit in the sense that it is candid and truthful. Do children have to attend? No

But this is irrelevant. Obama supported this curriculum which would teach children "comprehensive sex education." That is what the McCain ad said, and that is what the evidence supports. Case closed. McCain's ad wasn't lying.
Indeed, the bill explicitly (no pun intended) stated that parents/children could opt out of the program (see here). My daughters (31, 28, 26, and 20 [I also have an almost-13-year-old son]) asked and learned about human reproduction at very young ages, and they've grown into remarkably intelligent and healthy adults (if I were purely partisan, I'd also add: no teen pregnancies—*oops!*).

Again, this is irrelevant to the question of whether McCain lied. McCain didn't lie, yet the folks at CNN and the View and everywhere in media land, insist it is a lie.

Kevin, Sarah Palin's incessant retelling of the "bridge to nowhere" is a lie—period.

Not necessarily. She is ultimately the one who had the power to kill it, and she did. This is the point she was making I think, and it is true. Of course it is also true that congress pulled funding and left Alaska the money anyway. Was there still some back and forth going on between her and congress after this press release about the funding? Palin suggests there was. McCain was obviously intimately involved in the ordeal as well, and one of his hired hands wrote her speech that mentioned the "I told congress thanks but no thanks," so I suspect her remark is probably factual, but in reference to something the newspapers didn't bother to report since the issue was already dead to them. I saw her respond to Gibson on this point and she didn't strike me as someone who was just making stuff up. Ultimately she was the person who could have made it happen, and she decided not to. Whether she said this to congress at some point, may or may not be true. It certainly isn't proved that she didn't. How do you prove that someone didn't say something?
Palin supported the earmark before she became governor and after when the Alaskan congressional contingency sent the earmark to the House.

True. But she did this after 1. Debating the subject with folks like McCain and 2. doing a cost benefit analysis as a responsible governor should. She decided the project was not worth the money or the effort - especially in light of the massive bridge collapse in Minnesota and Hurricane Katrina - and she made the right decision to toss it out. The fact that she changed her mind in light of new knowledge, shows me she is a resonable person.
Not until public and congressional outcries echoed from the oil-enriched northern slopes did Palin kill the project—and even then, she "graciously" accepted the first installment of the earmarked $200,000,000.00+.

Of course she did. Why wouldn't she? Alaska has always required more federal funding for roads, bridges, water treatment facilities, sewage plants, etc (basic necessities that rural towns cannot pay for themselves). Alaska is huge and yet it has small towns thrown about all over its geography. So it is no wonder Alaska was the biggest earmark receiver than any other state, long before Palin became governor.

Palin never said she was "against earmarks" as so many people (CNN, TIME, CBS, ABC, Huffington Post, Washington Post, NYT, beastie, etc) have falsely asserted. She said explicitly that she is against the "abuse" of earmarking, and a perfect example of this is an earmark to pay back friends, and especially campaign contributors. This is Obama's way of doing political favors. Palin's earmarks were not paybacks in any sense of the word. She single-handedly reduced the $700 million 2005 earmarks to $500 million in 2006 and then in 2007 she cut the earmark request in half again. She is responsible for vetoes that amount to a half billion. Many of these earmarks were ongoing projects that were started by her predecessors, and couldn't be abandoned instantly. It was a gradual process, and her record stands impressive, despite the semantic game over the "bridge to nowhere."

PS: Save me from politics Brent. I really need you to publish your book so I can get back into Book of Abraham mode.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Trevor
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _Trevor »

Brent Metcalfe wrote:Do I detect a smidgen of common ground?

I love Gary Numan! (Including his collaboration with Bill Sharpe and his avant-garde recasting of his timeless hit "Cars.")


No way. Simply no way. I always assume I am the lone Numanoid, and I am right most of the time. Been worshiping at the Numan altar since roughly '82, when I rediscovered "Cars," and have been a fan ever since. Only managed to see him once live (in Philadelphia a couple of years ago), although I do own a program from the farewell concerts at Wembley, which I bought off of a guy who worked for Tower Records in DC. I have an extensive collection, including an autographed copy of The Pleasure Principle. In short, I am a very sick man.

Someday we have to talk Numan, although I have no idea how bad your illness is, and I don't want to inflict my mania on you. Forgive my junior-high enthusiasm. by the way, have you seen clips of his recent Telekon performances?
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_dartagnan
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _dartagnan »

The media is having a field day with this Palin citation:

"Let me speak specifically about a credential that I do bring to this table, Charlie, and that's with the energy independence that I've been working on for these years as the governor of this state that produces nearly 20 percent of the U.S. domestic supply of energy, that I worked on as chairman of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission, overseeing the oil and gas development in our state to produce more for the United States."

This statement by Palin is factually incorrect. But if we replace the word energy with "oil and gas" then the statement makes more sense:

Alaska Resource Development Council: Alaska's oil and gas industry has produced more than 16 billion barrels of oil and 6 billion cubic feet of natural gas, accounting for an average of 20 percent of the entire nation's domestic production. - http://www.akrdc.org/issues/oilgas/overview.html

I think Palin misspoke. I think this because she references "oil and gas" in her next breath. Palin just can't catch a break with the media, who are out for blood.

What I don't get is why the media and the democrats are all over this. I mean where is the uproar when Obama makes absolutely stupid claims about providing income tax cuts for 95% of Americans, when this is an impossibility? Why is it impossible? Well, more than 30% of Americans don't even pay income tax. How can you cut something that doesn't exist?
Brit Hume pointed out Barack “Obama goes around claiming he's going to cut the taxes of 95 percent of the public, which is literally impossible” since “40 percent of American taxpayers don't pay any income tax,” but that hasn't stopped ABC (directly) and CBS (implicitly) in recent days from advancing that Obama claim as fact. Charles Gibson, in his third interview session with Sarah Palin excerpted on Friday's 20/20 and Nightline (see earlier NB item), stated that Obama will extend the “Bush tax cuts on everything but people who own or earn more than $250,000 a year -- cuts taxes on over 91 percent of the country.”

On Tuesday's CBS Evening News, Anthony Mason looked at how the Obama and McCain tax plans would impact three Ohio families, including Charles and Joi Beacham who earn $32,000. Mason asked them: “In terms of taxes, what do you want from the next President?” Joi, a school teacher with an astounding level of chutzpah, replied: “Relief.” Chutzpah because, as Mason only noted later (and deserves credit for doing so unlike many of his colleagues over the years), the Beachams “paid no taxes in 2007.”

Nonetheless, Mason proceeded to report how the Beachams would benefit more from Obama than McCain since they “would see no change in their taxes under McCain, but the Obama plan would help them” because they would get refundable credits and thus “receive a check from the government for more than $2,200.” - http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brent-bake ... dishonesty


Isn't this the same guy who says he is more qualified to lead us on the economy? Then why isn't anyone pounding him for his stupid claims about what his plan really does? It is one thing to misunderstand your opponent's plan, but to misunderstand your own?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Brent Metcalfe
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _Brent Metcalfe »

Hi Kevin,

To clarify: If you can use a phone, you can use email. Voice-recognition software has been available for years—other accessible tools even longer (just ask Stephen Hawking). Again, for a person who would be president, John McCain's computer illiteracy is inexcusable.

I consider my anecdotes more relevant than yours for an obvious reason—I experienced mine. Since facts are irrelevant in discussing the sex education program that garnered Obama's support, what's the point in continuing the discussion? (by the way, when on Earth have I ever claimed that McCain was lying about this?!—Answer: I haven't. I just didn't feel that your posts told the fuller story.)

Palin lied and continues to lie. There is no documentary support for the notion that Palin rejected congressional funding for her "bridge to nowhere" due to her tenacious repulsion of wasteful earmarks. That is what makes her tale an extraordinarily tall one.

My best,

</brent>


http://mormonscripturestudies.com
(© 2008 Brent Lee Metcalfe. All rights reserved.)
——————————
The thesis of inspiration may not be invoked to guarantee historicity, for a divinely inspired story is not necessarily history.
—Raymond E. Brown
_Brent Metcalfe
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _Brent Metcalfe »

Hi Trevor,

An "autographed" copy?! The best I can come up with is that I still have the vinyl 12" remixes of "Change Your Mind."

From one wannabe soldier in the Tubeway Army to another, sleep well—and, yes, our friends are electric.

Kind regards,

</brent>


http://mormonscripturestudies.com
(© 2008 Brent Lee Metcalfe. All rights reserved.)
——————————
The thesis of inspiration may not be invoked to guarantee historicity, for a divinely inspired story is not necessarily history.
—Raymond E. Brown
_dartagnan
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _dartagnan »

To clarify: If you can use a phone, you can use email.

But the article said it is painful for him to type, which is why he chooses not to. You make it sound like browsing the internet is a necessity of life. I suspect he answers the phones and dials a seven digit number, or probably just pushes a number in the call list. It didn't say it was impossible for him to do so, just that his injuries make it a painful process. So given this fact, I see nothing wrong with him having his wife send emails on his behalf. I do not see how this proves him to be computer "illiterate."

My problem with this issue is Obama picked up on this fact from the articles I listed, and blew it way out of proportion for personal ambition. He is going all out to get his hands on the presidency, and he doesn't care who gets hurt in the process.
Voice-recognition software has been available for years—other accessible tools even longer (just ask Stephen Hawking).

But not everyone is a computer geek like you and I. It simply isn't a big deal to many people, especially when you're worth 100 million and can afford to have someone transcribe what you say. Isn't that generally what a personal on-the-road assistants do? I didn't envision Bill Clinton emailing people in the White House. Its just so incriminating, I suspect politicians would stay away from it.

You seem to think he is completely unfamiliar with the web, as if he is afraid of the technology or something. I'm talking about Obama's deceptive and inexcusable twisting of the facts, to smear a war hero and to suit his own political ambition.
Again, for a person who would be president, John McCain's computer illiteracy is inexcusable.

Yes, because googling is a must for the commander in chief (grin). Can you please tell me why the President of the United States would need to be proficient in modern computer technolgy? What exactly is he supposed to be doing on the web and how is this knowledge going to make him do his job better?

I think you're being extremely petty in this case. But all of this is still beside the point. The point is Obama twisted the facts to suit his own agenda. He's just a typical politician. There is nothing special there. He'll get elected just because he's not a member of the same political party as George Bush. People are voting against Bush more than they are voting for Obama. And he knows it, which is why he makes such a huge deal of this silly "more of the same, McCain voted 90% along with Bush."

I consider my anecdotes more relevant than yours for an obvious reason—I experienced mine.

You lost me.
Since facts are irrelevant in discussing the sex education program that garnered Obama's support, what's the point in continuing the discussion?

They are irrelevant to the point I am making, which you now concede below:
by the way, when on Earth have I ever claimed that McCain was lying about this?!—Answer: I haven't. I just didn't feel that your posts told the fuller story.

Well, I thought that was the point we were discussing. If you concede the point that McCain's ad was not lying, then we agree.

You'll be the first Obama supporter I've spoken with would admit this.
Palin lied and continues to lie.

So goes the rumor. Thus far, I haven't seen the proof in the pudding. I have, however, seen plenty of proof that Obama is willing to lie and deceive to suit his political ambitions. You cannot point to a single earmark by Palin, that was a "payback" for a previous political favor. Obama's record is riddled with them.
There is no documentary support for the notion that Palin rejected congressional funding for her "bridge to nowhere" due to her tenacious repulsion of wasteful earmarks. That is what makes her tale an extraordinarily tall one.

But this is such a non sequitur.

Surely you understand that when you're trying to prove a negative, the burden is all on you. This means that any allegations of "lies" will ring hollow. Think of it this way. Yesterday I told my neighbor to piss off. As far as I know, there is no documented support for this. I guess by the logic you're employing now, I have to be lying.

Palin's claim is supported by her impressive record of cutting spending. It fits the mold she has been posing for. This is the elephant in the room that none of the democrats are willing to address. Again, Alaska's former governor requested $700 million in 2005. Palin reduced that to $550 in her first year in office, and then the next year she cut that figure in half. This is what we call a pattern.

Democrats who frequently highlight the $220 million in earmark requests this year are usually doing so without any understanding of the context of Alaska's recent earmarking history, and they are usually attaching the straw man "and she says she is against earmarks." Once the overall picture is in focus, and Palin's true position on earmarks is understood, Palin's record takes on a whole new meaning, and it is no wonder she made a name for herself long before McCain chose her as a running mate.

Two ‘Bridges to Nowhere’ Tumble Down in Congress
By CARL HULSE
Published: November 17, 2005

WASHINGTON, Nov. 16 - Congressional Republicans decided Wednesday to take a legislative wrecking ball to two Alaskan bridge projects that had demolished the party’s reputation for fiscal austerity.

Straining to show new dedication to lower spending, House and Senate negotiators took the rare step of eliminating a requirement that $442 million be spent to build the two bridges, spans that became cemented in the national consciousness as “bridges to nowhere” because of the remote territory and small populations involved.

The change will not save the federal government any money. Instead, the $442 million will be turned over to the state with no strings attached, allowing lawmakers and the governor there to parcel it out for transportation projects as they see fit, including the bridges should they so choose


She is responsible for shooting down the bridge, even though Biden and Obama both voted for it!

by the way: What do you make of Obama lying about his previous job life? And what do you make of Biden lying about his resume?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_moksha
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _moksha »

Brent Metcalfe wrote:I consider McCain's technophobia inexcusable.

Best regards,

</brent>



Still, this is a trait he shares with many other senior citizens. Fortunately for McCain, he has people to do the technical things for him (as well as reach things for him, since it appears he is not able to raise his arms above shoulder height).

.
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_aussieguy55
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _aussieguy55 »

"In 2002, McCain introduced a bill to deregulate the broadband Internet market, warning that "the potential for government interference with market forces is not limited to federal regulation." Three years earlier, McCain had joined with other Republicans to push through landmark legislation sponsored by then-Sen. Phil Gramm (Tex.), who is now an economic adviser to his campaign. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act aimed to make the country's financial institutions competitive by removing the Depression-era walls between banking, investment and insurance companies.
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That bill allowed AIG to participate in the gold rush of a rapidly expanding global banking and investment market. But the legislation also helped pave the way for companies such as AIG and Lehman Brothers to become behemoths laden with bad loans and investments.

McCain now condemns the executives at those companies for pursuing the ambitions that the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act made possible, saying that "in an endless quest for easy money, they dreamed up investment schemes that they themselves don't even understand." "
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... newsletter
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_antishock8
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _antishock8 »

AG,

Your, ah, understanding of, ah... Hrm... Well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley_Act

The bills comprising the act were introduced in the Senate by Phil Gramm (R-TX) and in the House of Representatives by James Leach (R-IA). The bills were passed by a 54-44 vote along party lines with Republican support in the Senate and by a 343-86 vote with bipartisan support in the House of Representatives. It was signed into law by President Bill Clinton.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

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_antishock8
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _antishock8 »

I find it amusing, in a sad way, that Democrats are hyping Governor Palin's earmarks while giving *Congressman Charlie Rangel (D-NY) $1.1 billion of pork in the form of "liberty bonds" in the energy bill they've most likely passed yesterday that prohibits offshore drilling out to 50 miles from the shore, opt-in drilling from 50-100 miles, and open drilling at 100 miles +. Oh, and states won't be able to revenue share, either. The bill essentially hogties offshore drilling efforts to alleviate our energy crisis.

Nothing like speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Change!

* Let's not address his financial scandals, either. If one does, one is racist, and we can't have that, no? No no...
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
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