Journey of Faith DVDs

[_Sethbag]

Daniel, please bear with me, as this post will be fairly lengthy. You have misunderstood my view, and I will attempt to explain myself more clearly.

I have never said that there is some inevitable general trend toward unbelief, whatever some former philosophers may have said on the subject. Inasmuch as they may have predicted a universal drive away from religious belief and toward atheism, they were probably somewhat short-sighted and viewed the human condition with a sort of progressive utopianism or idealism.

The reality has born out that although atheism is on the rise, and is probably more prevalent now than ever, it is still in the minority, and religious belief of a multitude of different varieties and manifestations has proven extraordinarily resilient. We must acknowledge, and never underestimate the power of the mind virus of religion to produce worldviews and belief systems that are able to survive amongst homo sapiens seemingly against all odds.

I agree with the view that religions follow a developmental lifecycle or evolution not unlike organisms, and those religions that survive longterm are those that develop the various combinations of intellectual, organizational, and social mechanisms to both insulate their believers from contrary evidence, and defend their beliefs in the face of that evidence that cannot forever be avoided. Religions have to compete in the market for human capital just like all other human endeavors, and those not able to compete effectively fall by the wayside. Successful competitive strategies seem to combine the carrot and the stick, and mechanisms of perpetuating and defending the beliefs.

At any rate, the world is full of religious believers of all kinds of different varieties. To give you a more in-depth idea of where I'm coming from, if you're still reading this, let's assume for the sake of argument that just half of the 7 billion people on Earth hold firm religious beliefs. If we further assume that there are around 5 million active and believing Mormons, then this would mean that only 1 in 70 religious believers are Mormons, and only 1 in 140 people overall.

It is my view that all of these religious believers are wrong. Even the strictest Mormon view would have to hold that the other 69 out of 70 are at least substantially, often majorly, and to some extent utterly wrong in their beliefs. And yet these 69 out of 70 believe strongly that they are right. They hold worldviews that they believe are both consistent with reality, supportive of their religious views, and yet they are wrong. Being wrong, they successfully deploy defensive strategies to continue rationalizing their views in the face of contrary evidence.

Given how at the very least, almost every religious believer out there is able to maintain themselves in a state of self-deception, it is a very serious problem for any given believer to confront, ie: given how easy it is to maintain oneself in a religious delusion and yet be convinced that one's beliefs are true, is it possible that I too may be likewise deluded, and successfully employing my particular set of mechanisms to maintain this belief?

I think a thoughtful and honest investigation of this possibility is likely to turn out hostile to the cause of defense of the faith.

***************************************************************************

Back to Justme, and Asbestosman before him, and my predictions that these guys would eventually ditch the Mormon belief system.

Inasmuch as I have predicted future realization of the untruth of the LDS church on the part of a small number of posters on this message board or MADB, I have done so for very different reasons than a belief in a general and universal, and inevitable trend towards atheism.

The primary reason is that I think that a young, enthusiastic LDS believer is playing with fire when they immerse themselves in the world of LDS historical criticism and apologetics. Although a certain "special" breed such as yourself can expose yourselves to this stuff for an entire lifetime and still go to your graves professing (and feeling) a conviction in the truthfulness of the LDS church, a great many people exposed to this sort of thing end up losing their faith and leaving the ranks of the believers.

I think this is undeniable, given the evidence of how many of the longterm critics (ie: not counting the 1 or 2 day appearances of some Christian fanatics from other boards as trolls) seem to have been faithful LDS believers originally, and lost their faith through what they believe to be strong evidence against the church's claims. Also, if it were not so, there would not have been, traditionally, such an institutional aversion toward the rank and file engaging in historical study and analysis of the Church and its history.

My own experience with this was that when I forced myself to attempt to be as objective as I could manage, and look at the evidence, view it in the context of a world filled with strong believers in and partisans for non-true religions, and to be as intellectual honest with this as I could, I just couldn't any longer accept the sorts of rationalizations and excuses that I feel are required to remain a believer. In other words, I recognized the rationalizations and excuses as such, ie: as the Mormon versions of the kinds of things others also employ to maintain their beliefs. I simply couldn't do it. Knowing that there are a lot of people who react similarly, I see people like Asbestosman and JustMe and I can clearly see in my mind's eye, down the road these guys looking at themselves in the mirror one day and saying holy cow, how have I managed to keep this going for so long?

I could be wrong, but I don't think I will be.

There are still people who believe firmly in Zoroastrianism, in Jainism, in Buddhism, in Islam, in Judaism, in Wicca and other forms of paganism, in the Catholic version of Christianity, the Lutheran version, the Southern Baptist version, the Church of England (et al) version, the Seventh Day Adventist version, the Jehovah's Witness version, and many dozens of other version of Christianity and other monotheistic or polytheistic religions around the world. There is something employed by the members and adherents of all these various belief systems which keeps their beliefs true in their own minds. It is my thesis that Mormonism is no different, and simply has its own version of that certain "something" which they use. I believe that this is a situation which can be recognized for what it is, and that in reality it isn't even all that hard. The evidence is all around us, in fact.

[_harmony]

I don't think that will happen, Seth.

Not everyone is as introspective or as given to balanced analysis of a given situation as you are, Seth. Most people just accept what either they were taught growing up or seek that which looks and feels good at the time. There are relatively few deep thinkers in any population, which of course explains why people go on Crusades, elect foolish presidents, and stand all amazed while the grass is overtaken by sand because they overgrazed for decades.

Those who get out of Mormonism might likely be leaping out because what they see outside it looks and feels better than what they have inside it. That can apply to virtually all reasons to leave: for intellectual reasons, to sin, apathy... whatever it is, it looks and feels better than staying in. It's doubtful that all, or even half, put any real thought into it.

[_JustMe]

Sethbag

No, it isn't.

Yes it is.

[_JustMe]

Sethbag

My own experience with this was that when I forced myself to attempt to be as objective as I could manage

Which philosophy of itself is completely subjective.

[_beastie]

justme -

I'm still waiting on your explanation about why my statement about the tapir theory is silly hyperbole.

[_JustMe]

justme -

I'm still waiting on your explanation about why my statement about the tapir theory is silly hyperbole.

Yes, I understand you are. I'm not overly excited and in no hurry whatever to get into it with you anymore than Dr. Peterson is.

[_beastie]

Yes, I understand you are. I'm not overly excited and in no hurry whatever to get into it with you anymore than Dr. Peterson is.

If anyone out there in internets land actually believes justme or Dan can refute my points, I got a beautiful bridge to nowhere to sell ya'.

[_krose]

Yes, I understand you are. I'm not overly excited and in no hurry whatever to get into it with you anymore than Dr. Peterson is.

If anyone out there in internets land actually believes justme or Dan can refute my points, I got a beautiful bridge to nowhere to sell ya'.

No, and it's a pathetic display. Very embarrassing.

Oh, oh, wait! "Thanks but no thanks." ^_^

[_JustMe]

Yes, I understand you are. I'm not overly excited and in no hurry whatever to get into it with you anymore than Dr. Peterson is.

If anyone out there in internets land actually believes justme or Dan can refute my points, I got a beautiful bridge to nowhere to sell ya'.

lol......... as if this is significant for something or other.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Just me,

I'm curious why you won't respond to Beastie.

:-)

~td~