Kenneth Miller's New Book - Only a Theory...

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_Droopy
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Re: Kenneth Miller's New Book - Only a Theory...

Post by _Droopy »

First, and most importantly, you simply need to ask them what atheism lacks that God has that grounds morality.


A perfect comprehension and understanding of the nature of the universe, with specific focus on his perfect comprehension of the nature of intelligence and that which is required for such intelligence to progress and achieve a "fullness of joy" which is the purpose of our existence.

That is, morality is the structural integrity of human relations: it is the attitudes, perceptions, and conduct within a relational context that creates the conditions for and boundary conditions of human happiness. God has a full and perfect comprehension of this ground, and hence, is qualified to identify it to us.

Second, you can bring up the Euthyphro dilemma. The gist of the argument is that if morality is contingent on God, it is arbitrary and empty, but if is contingent on something independent, then belief in God doesn't matter.


Why, if morality is contingent upon God (not that LDS doctrine claims this, but for the sake of the argument), need it be arbitrary and empty? Is this supposed to be a logical deduction? If so, we are missing a premise (premises) here. It would seem that for the contingency of morality to imply arbitrariness, this would require an assumption about the nature of God himself such that contingency and arbitrariness could be logically linked? What is that basis of that linkage?

If, for example, God is omniscient, then he has not only all true moral knowledge, but all knowledge of the manner in which morality should be applied to human affairs. If then, morality is contingent upon God, it is contingent upon a ground of absolute non-contingency (even if it is contingent solely upon him, his knowledge, being prefect, is non-contingent).

Far from making morality arbitrary and empty, contingency only points us to the source of moral knowledge, not its ultimate justification.

God only becomes unnecessary if independent contingency, or that upon which the contingency is based, is understood to somehow transcend God rather then exist as a, to borrow a term from physics, "field" in which God, and all created things, are embedded.
"morality" is an abstraction, and only achieves application as intelligent beings interact with one another. It is the nature of that interaction that is important. Morality then, is an emergent property in human relations, existing for human beings only as they are capable of interacting with each other in a moral way.

Morality, as with Priesthood law and the principles of the Gospel generally, coexist and are co-eternal with intelligence, and only intelligence can apply moral concepts in relationships with other intelligence. Hence, abstract principles and intelligence are interdependent and interconnected, making independent contingency simply an acknowledgment that God, while not the creator of morality, is he who identifies it to us and holds us accountable for our actions in relation to it and to him as the ultimate source of our own knowledge of the proper boundaries, channels, and limits of human relations.

God remains as necessary as before (as "lawgiver" and as exemplar (Jesus)) even though he need not be seen as the ultimate ground of the concepts themselves.
He is the ground in the sense that he is the authority that holds his children accountable for their actions in relation to eternal law (which he is capable of because he is an intelligence) but not the ground in the sense of the ultimate origin of those eternal laws

The alternative is, of course, morality that is contingent upon human notions of morality; that is, relative concepts contingent upon time, culture, social conditions, and various societal norms, mores, human psychological dynamics, passions, and emotional states.


One way to get the point across is to ask why you can't have what the theist has by grounding your moral views in the will of Gadianton? Why is that any worse?


Gadianton would have to have the attribute of omniscience, which he patently does not. Gadianton would also have to have God's character, which insures the proper moral boundaries of God's own dealings with human beings, which neither he, nor any of us, so have.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Kenneth Miller's New Book - Only a Theory...

Post by _Droopy »

This is a non sequitur. You're going to have to explain why there is no ultimate ground of morality and ethics if there is no God. This isn't a given.


You're the secular atheist and metaphysical Darwinist. Why should I have to explain this to you?

I said:

Quote:
Hence, everything is permitted contingent upon the social, cultural, and moral temperament of a society at any given time.


And this is different from everything being permitted contingent upon the will of your particular Deity how? Joseph Smith said it best: "whatever God commands is right, no matter what it is." This is no different than the society determining what is right - you've just shifted who is "The Decider" up one level.



Up "one level". Surely you jest? No, I fear not...

I said:

Dostoevsky didn't mean that everything is permitted for any individual atheist, but that the inescapable logical implication of the nonexistence of God is that all values are ultimately relative and arbitrary, chosen according to the particular predilections and dispositions of a culture at any given point in that culture's development.


And what is right and wrong if you're a believer ultimately depends on what some (inevitably) man tells you your God says it is.


Are you really that naïve and ill informed regarding LDS doctrine on the subject here?

You've taken the power of a whole society to determine what is right and wrong and concentrated it into the hands of one person. When that person is benevolent and virtuous, that might not be all that bad, but when that person is an evil, psychopathic tyrant - watch out!


The ground is God, not any person. The spirit and power of revelation is the mediating principle.


Right and Wrong either exist inherently in the universe, or they exist because God created them, or they don't actually exist and we're responsible for coming up with our values as humans working together to form mutually beneficial societies.


What is the logical basis for the above dichotomy?

If they exist because God created them, then they are arbitrary and capricious.


True.
If they exist inherently, then why the need for God?


I've already provided a cursory exploration of this question above. Very cursory.

And if they don't exist, well, then we'd better figure out how we're going to live together and get along.


Why don't we just all kill each other and get it over with? Why do we need to exist at all? All war, evil, and degradation could be ended by simply exterminating the human species. And in so doing, no moral rule will have been violated so long as we could all come to an agreement that no moral rule was violated. If there is no ultimate ground, then there is no ultimate reference frame.

Let see, that last great experiment in human brotherhood and togetherness killed some one hundred million human beings, and scarred the lives of countless more. And oh, that was an atheist movement, was it not? It blended Hegel with Marx and Darwin and Nietzsche and the idol of reason and cast itself to the winds.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_EAllusion
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Re: Kenneth Miller's New Book - Only a Theory...

Post by _EAllusion »

A perfect comprehension and understanding of the nature of the universe, with specific focus on his perfect comprehension of the nature of intelligence and that which is required for such intelligence to progress and achieve a "fullness of joy" which is the purpose of our existence.

That is, morality is the structural integrity of human relations: it is the attitudes, perceptions, and conduct within a relational context that creates the conditions for and boundary conditions of human happiness. God has a full and perfect comprehension of this ground, and hence, is qualified to identify it to us.


You just identified your normative theory as utilitarian. Congrats. If you'd like to wash the "leftist" off your body and come back in a few minutes I'll wait.

...

Ok.

All you are saying is that God is more morally knowledgeable and thus can reveal moral knowledge to us better than we could figure out for ourselves. Unless you are saying such knowledge is impossible without God, you've already given up the entire argument. The atheist does not fundamentally lack the ability to coherently believe in moral facts while theists do. You've already accepted a standard of morality logically independent of God, which atheists are free to believe in just the same. This, of course, is not a point most people who make a moral argument being talked about will give up as that is their entire basis for arguing this in the first place. Unfortunately, if we don't have independent access to knowing moral truth how does one know that God is perfectly moral as claimed? In order to judge a being moral, do you not need some baseline to measure that being against? If you have some a priori argument that God exists necessarily as a perfectly moral being, then you don't need a moral argument for his existence. You have absolute proof of his existence already. The downside here is that you don't have such an argument.
Is this supposed to be a logical deduction? If so, we are missing a premise (premises) here. It would seem that for the contingency of morality to imply arbitrariness, this would require an assumption about the nature of God himself such that contingency and arbitrariness could be logically linked? What is that basis of that linkage?


I provided three links on the argument. All three answer your question. The argument is widely accepted by theists and atheists alike.
He is the ground in the sense that he is the authority that holds his children accountable for their actions in relation to eternal law (which he is capable of because he is an intelligence) but not the ground in the sense of the ultimate origin of those eternal laws


But holding people accountable for their actions doesn't ground morality or knowing it. Unless you are suggesting that one ought to behave in such a way that their self-interests are advantaged (and thus seek reward and avoid punishment), God holding people accountable doesn't provide moral motivation for their behavior. You can't tell a person they ought to behave in such a way that their self-interests are advantaged. At best, God becomes a prudential reason to be moral. Unfortunately, that doesn't touch what is under dispute.

Gadianton would have to have the attribute of omniscience, which he patently does not. Gadianton would also have to have God's character, which insures the proper moral boundaries of God's own dealings with human beings, which neither he, nor any of us, so have.


If Gadianton's will is by definition the standard of good, then Gad does not need to be omniscient for his will to be good. Omniscience and omnibenevolence are logically independent concepts. An appeal to character is begging the question in this case, as Gad's will is by definition morally perfect. To the extent that God isn't like Gad, that is a fault of God since we've defined the good in terms of Gad's will, not God's.
_antishock8
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Re: Kenneth Miller's New Book - Only a Theory...

Post by _antishock8 »

I think God is just like me,

He is a he, just like me.

He likes America, and satellite tv.

He loves guns and ammo

and killin' the enemy.

He hates the faggots,

but creates them anyway,

what a mystery.

He drives an SUV,

and is in church Sunday.

He "F"s his wife,

and his other wife,

and his other wife,

so I guess he's not exactly like me.

And apparently he likes

to golf

to nap

and to woodwork.

But can't be bothered by

by all the whining.

He has better things to do.

So, in reality,

He's just like Droopy.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Droopy
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Re: Kenneth Miller's New Book - Only a Theory...

Post by _Droopy »

A mind is a terrible thing to waste...at least under certain circumstances.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_JustMe
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Re: Kenneth Miller's New Book - Only a Theory...

Post by _JustMe »

I read Miller's book and really rather enjoyed it, as I did his other one also. A good writer. A good logician. A good scientist. a good Christian. I mean what a combination of factors!
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