Apologetics: Why bother?

[_Mister Scratch]

I engage in apologetics, to the extent that I do -- which is, far and away, not here and not on message boards -- to maintain an area where faith can grow.

My efforts aren't aimed at militant disbelievers, who are unlikely to be persuaded, nor at unquestioning believers, who probably won't pay any attention, but, in large part, at people just barely on the inside who are experiencing doubts and at people just barely on the outside who are inclined to believe but have encountered one or more troubling issues or need just a bit more to go on.

Translations: those who needs "credentialed" scholars to rip into critics. But, in all fairness, Dan, don't you think these "doubters" should be clued into the fact that the "scholars" are folks like Tvedtnes, who embellish accounts of their accomplishments? I mean, imagine how the testimonies might come crashing down if they were to learn that you all get paid to do apologetics! It would be like finding out about Joseph Smith's polyandry all over again. You really ought to try and do a better job of telling the truth.

"Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish."

Such a pity, then, that so little of Mopologetic argument is "rational," but rather, based on revenge and animosity. C. S. Lewis is no doubt spinning in his grave.

[_Gazelam]

I have found the study of Mormon doctrine to be not only enlightening, but absolutley facinating. It gives such scope and depth to chritianity that it takes ones breath away. It shines light on ancient teachings and gives perspective and understanding to ancient belief systems and practices.

Anti-mormon writers and critics of the church ignorantly try to tear down the very thing that gives a firm point of reference to our very existence. They do so out of a supposed sense of enlightenment which is in fact misplaced and misinformed.

I seek to defend the proper belief and stance. I may not make any difference to a hardliner, but if something I offer has a positive effect on a passerby to this board then it was worth it, even though I may be just a outcropped rock in the river, at least I may be something to grasp onto and pull oneself to safety.

[_JustMe]

Scratch

I mean, imagine how the testimonies might come crashing down if they were to learn that you all get paid to do apologetics

You simply don't know the half of it Scratch....... I was so stunned when I read your expose on this issue. Peterson gets paid...... oh I have lost sleep on this! My eyes have watered mine pillows, I hath prayed unto the Lord God Almighty in Righteousness for Scratch sake, and He hath answered my prayers! I have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord! (and no joke Jack, He is driving a Corvette!), and He hath whispered unto mine soul.... "My Son, my son, my weary, weary son, my son with eyes red as sunsets, mine son....... " (It was at this point I said "HEY! I'm in trouble here Dude, can you knock off all the sweetness and just answer the question as to why I feel deceived in testimony because Peterson and the other paid Mormon jokers make dough on the soul, so to speak?"). He saith unto me in a vision, though me thought it twere a dream, but really now itcoulda been a vision man, I know what my eyes saw. Anyways, He said...... my Son, what does it matter to thee what mine other servants make?" I replied "Look man, pull that kinda bait and switch, ditch the real issue for a strawman strategy outta your hat for someone else, I am far too clever and adroit at seeing through such falsity!" Now tell me straight!" And lo and behold, on the third night on the morning of the afternoon of yesterday in the days before the tomorrows broke through clouds of time into future moments of hours, I beheld my vision whilst awake in my dream of me sleeping, the answer written upon papyrus with HIS own hand (not Larson's or anyone elses for that matter) that the merest farthing of pittance I pay mine servants at BYU, I shall recompense thee tenfold for thy not having enough due to their lazy and ill manners of neglecting the law of tithing unto the Gentiles. I shall "scratch" them out of the Book of Life, and thy reward shall be to have thy back "scratched" by mine maidens who honor thee and are there to "scratch" out a living serving thee. If thy face in the mornings feel "scratch"(y) with whiskers, they shall sooth thy skin. If thy feet itch, I shall remove the "scratch" of discomfort through a higher payscale. Though thou shalt dwell on thy belly all the days of thy life, the thorns shall not "scratch" thee, nor shall the rocks crush thee. Thou shalt "scratch" thy fears away from poverty since I shall choose mine elect, the very Dr. Daniel C. Peterson to be thine "scratch" (ing) post for eons and eons.

And thus I remain truly satisfied.
Amen, and amen!

[_Mister Scratch]

Scratch

I mean, imagine how the testimonies might come crashing down if they were to learn that you all get paid to do apologetics

You simply don't know the half of it Scratch....... I was so stunned when I read your expose on this issue. Peterson gets paid...... oh I have lost sleep on this! My eyes have watered mine pillows, I hath prayed unto the Lord God Almighty in Righteousness for Scratch sake, and He hath answered my prayers!

Did you know beforehand that he'd received $20,000 for being "Chair" of FARMS? And did you know, moreover, that the FARMS accountant had been fired?

I have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord! (and no joke Jack, He is driving a Corvette!), and He hath whispered unto mine soul.... "My Son, my son, my weary, weary son, my son with eyes red as sunsets, mine son....... " (It was at this point I said "HEY! I'm in trouble here Dude, can you knock off all the sweetness and just answer the question as to why I feel deceived in testimony because Peterson and the other paid Mormon jokers make dough on the soul, so to speak?").

"on the soul"? No, I really think it's more of a hobby for them.

He saith unto me in a vision, though me thought it twere a dream, but really now itcoulda been a vision man, I know what my eyes saw. Anyways, He said...... my Son, what does it matter to thee what mine other servants make?" I replied "Look man, pull that kinda bait and switch, ditch the real issue for a strawman strategy outta your hat for someone else, I am far too clever and adroit at seeing through such falsity!" Now tell me straight!" And lo and behold, on the third night on the morning of the afternoon of yesterday in the days before the tomorrows broke through clouds of time into future moments of hours, I beheld my vision whilst awake in my dream of me sleeping, the answer written upon papyrus with HIS own hand (not Larson's or anyone elses for that matter) that the merest farthing of pittance I pay mine servants at BYU, I shall recompense thee tenfold for thy not having enough due to their lazy and ill manners of neglecting the law of tithing unto the Gentiles. I shall "scratch" them out of the Book of Life, and thy reward shall be to have thy back "scratched" by mine maidens who honor thee and are there to "scratch" out a living serving thee. If thy face in the mornings feel "scratch"(y) with whiskers, they shall sooth thy skin. If thy feet itch, I shall remove the "scratch" of discomfort through a higher payscale. Though thou shalt dwell on thy belly all the days of thy life, the thorns shall not "scratch" thee, nor shall the rocks crush thee. Thou shalt "scratch" thy fears away from poverty since I shall choose mine elect, the very Dr. Daniel C. Peterson to be thine "scratch" (ing) post for eons and eons.

And thus I remain truly satisfied.
Amen, and amen!

In other words, for some very odd reason, you are very, very bothered at the fact that LDS apologists get paid thousand-plus dollar sums to engage in apologetics. I daresay that this issue has rocked apologetics to its very core: there was that silly "conciliatory" thread at MAD; there was DCP's endless spinning here on this board; there was "Scotty Dog" Gordon's "joking" on the Kerry Shirts YouTube video. If this is "no big deal," I have to ask: Why all the effort to brush it aside? Why all the uncomfortable attempts at "humor"? Why not just say, "Yes, apologists get paid," and let that be the end of it? Why get so bent out of shape?

[_JustMe]

Scratch

Did you know beforehand that he'd received $20,000 for being "Chair" of FARMS

Now wait a sec. Your "informant" is falling down on the job.... My informant (a family member, so you simply CANNOT let DCP know I have a *real* insider here) told me he heard Daniel's mother on the phone to her bishop say that she was upset because she knows that Daniel received $55,000, but that she was looking at his most recent tithing settlement receipt, and for tithing he only had paid $12.43 back. That just does not in any way add up to 10%. So she knew. The bishop told her that he wanted to interview Daniel. But now an interesting thing occurs. Daniel's mother immediately after hanging up with the bishop got on the phone with the Relief Society President and told her to make sure that Daniel was invited to the Kirspy Kreme bake off that next Saturday morning so she could warn him about the Bishops sinister intent! Why didn't she just tell Daniel himself? Because he was in his office at the university FARMS office writing while ON THE CLOCK! It's the mjost dishonest evil thing I have ever heard..... and I heard it from an informant who is an insider.......a real "insider." An actual family member!

[_bcspace]

Also, what about the "This is not the official position of the LDS Church" or something to that effect?

Are LDS instructed to include this? What happens, if anything, if they don't?

Critics of the Church are constantly getting the doctrine wrong because they refuse to accept the Church's own statements about what is doctrine lest their favorite argument gets negated.

There is no special instruction for this. A member is typically going to recognize that what a nonmember, inactive member, or apostate member is saying is incorrect.

[_Ray A]

Critics of the Church are constantly getting the doctrine wrong because they refuse to accept the Church's own statements about what is doctrine lest their favorite argument gets negated.

Would that include the First Presidency's doctrinal statements on Blacks in the 1940s?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Translations: those who needs "credentialed" scholars to rip into critics. But, in all fairness, Dan, don't you think these "doubters" should be clued into the fact that the "scholars" are folks like Tvedtnes, who embellish accounts of their accomplishments? I mean, imagine how the testimonies might come crashing down if they were to learn that you all get paid to do apologetics! It would be like finding out about Joseph Smith's polyandry all over again. You really ought to try and do a better job of telling the truth.

Such a pity, then, that so little of Mopologetic argument is "rational," but rather, based on revenge and animosity. C. S. Lewis is no doubt spinning in his grave.

You're an obsessive and malignant loon, Scartch.

Did you know beforehand that he'd received $20,000 for being "Chair" of FARMS?

I didn't, of course.

And did you know, moreover, that the FARMS accountant had been fired?

Presumably because he was about to blow the whistle on our corruption, or some such thing.

Jersey Girl may have had hopes of a substantive thread here, but Scartch is going to try to sandbag the effort, I think.

In other words, for some very odd reason, you are very, very bothered at the fact that LDS apologists get paid thousand-plus dollar sums to engage in apologetics.

!!!

I daresay that this issue has rocked apologetics to its very core

LOL. I'm the only person involved with the Maxwell Institute who's even aware of Scartch's nonsense on this issue.

[_Jersey Girl]

Scratch

Translations: those who needs "credentialed" scholars to rip into critics. But, in all fairness, Dan, don't you think these "doubters" should be clued into the fact that the "scholars" are folks like Tvedtnes, who embellish accounts of their accomplishments? I mean, imagine how the testimonies might come crashing down if they were to learn that you all get paid to do apologetics! It would be like finding out about Joseph Smith's polyandry all over again. You really ought to try and do a better job of telling the truth.

If you want to level accusations on Daniel or other apologists, take it to another flippin' thread you gossip whore. This thread isn't about attacking apologists, it's about why people engage in apologetics.

[_moksha]

As I have mentioned before, there are members in my ward who are very pleased that Dr. Peterson is there churning out such arguments, even if they are unsure about what has been said.

Mok,

In your estimation, how aware is the gen. chapel population of Daniel's work? If I stopped in the local Ward, would most members know of his work?

When they have spoken of him, they seemed less familiar with his work than myself - so that means they are not familiar with it. However, he does get touted every few months as standing watch for the Church in battling against the forces of anti-mormon arguments. So in that sense, he is known and respected as much as a Seventies-level General Authority.