Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

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_JustMe
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Re: Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

Post by _JustMe »

beastie wrote:Mesoamerica is the only area in the New World that possessed the pre-requisite population density (not overall population, mind you, but density) that could even hope to provide the social complexity described in the Book of Mormon, during the specified time range.


And its the only place that has actual writing system. It also matches many descriptions in the Book of Mormon concerning tropics as opposed to the bitter cold winters in Buffalo New York. And all the topography features of what and where is up and down are matched, as Sorenson has shown in numerous publications. And this is where at least 3 Book of Mormon names are bonafide confirmed, among many other things.
_moksha
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Re: Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

Post by _moksha »

Many of them have gone on Spanish speaking missions.

I am still confused how all those heavy golden plates and Book of Mormon artifacts could have gotten to the upper New York site, while simultaneously rejecting the idea of a time-space portal that I once suggested. How much weight could even the hardiest of tapirs pull in a chariot (which would have been ill equipped for the intervening rivers, swamps, muddy fields and mountains).
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_beastie
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Re: Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

Post by _beastie »

And its the only place that has actual writing system. It also matches many descriptions in the Book of Mormon concerning tropics as opposed to the bitter cold winters in Buffalo New York. And all the topography features of what and where is up and down are matched, as Sorenson has shown in numerous publications. And this is where at least 3 Book of Mormon names are bonafide confirmed, among many other things.


As dude already pointed out, the writing system is immaterial, because it is unrelated to any Old World script whatsoever. Yes, I know there are some fringers like Barry Fell who claim otherwise, but mainstream scholars have discredited Fell’s claims.

All of the topographical features do not match. The entire theory depends upon rotating the directional axis, for one thing. Secondly, the “narrow neck” is a horrible match with the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. I did some research on this myself before finding this page that already demonstrates its problems.

Isthmus of Tehuantepec

1. It is much too wide. It is 130 miles across and would not be considered narrow by the average person. It could not be crossed in 1 1/2 days by the average person, but would take 7 days at 20 miles per day. Alma 22:32 and Hel. 4:7. During the California gold rush of 1849 those who did not cross continental North America to get to the gold fields used three other routes: 1) sailing around the tip of South America and thence up to California, 2) Crossing the Isthmus of Panama, and 3) Crossing the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. The Panama route was the preferred one, the South American route the second, and the Isthmus of Tehuantepec least preferred because it was the most difficult and dangerous. To get some idea of the width of the Istmus of Tehuantepec let us make some comparisons. It is wider than the state of Florida. It is almost as wide as the narrowest part of California. It's width is about the same as the distance from Salt Lake City, Utah to Vernal, Utah, or to Fillmore, Utah. Would you consider these distances to be "narrow"? Some researchers have suggested that Tehuantepec was narrower in Book of Mormon times, and thus could more easily qualify as the narrow neck. However archeological research has shown that ancient sites along the Gulf coast date back to the Nephite era, so that argument cannot be correct otherwise they would have been underwater. Others have suggested that the "narrow neck" is actually a narrow strip of land along the Pacific coast of Tehuantepec; however, this ignores the criteria set forth in the Book of Mormon.


What 3 Book of Mormon names are “bonafide confirmed”? I’m familiar with Bountiful. Of course, that’s the wrong place and wrong time, but it probably is the best “evidence” Book of Mormon apologists have ever found, which is pretty sad.

Sorenson’s “up and down” research was quite convoluted, and entirely dependent on his subjective interpretation of the terms.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_Gazelam
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Re: Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

Post by _Gazelam »

1) Panama (And no, not the Van Halen song, the country)

2) Stela 5

3) Cusco

4) Chachapoyas
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_beastie
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Re: Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

Post by _beastie »

John Clark has debunked stela 5 here

And why are you referring to the Inca to support the Book of Mormon? Is it possible that you don't understand The Inca Timeline?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Gazelam
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Re: Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

Post by _Gazelam »

The Incas had taken the idea of the Temple and were storing their dead kings and queens in the temple chambers. They had taken the basic idea of the temple and corrupted it, the same as the Catholics did with the true form of Christianity.

Apostasy happens. The point is that the true form of the temple did exist there at one time. The evidence is overwhelming.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Ray A

Re: Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

Post by _Ray A »

Gazelam wrote:The Incas had taken the idea of the Temple and were storing their dead kings and queens in the temple chambers. They had taken the basic idea of the temple and corrupted it, the same as the Catholics did with the true form of Christianity.

Apostasy happens. The point is that the true form of the temple did exist there at one time. The evidence is overwhelming.


Can you share some of this evidence, Gaz? Like scholars who have argued as you have above?
_beastie
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Re: Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

Post by _beastie »

The Incas had taken the idea of the Temple and were storing their dead kings and queens in the temple chambers. They had taken the basic idea of the temple and corrupted it, the same as the Catholics did with the true form of Christianity.

Apostasy happens. The point is that the true form of the temple did exist there at one time. The evidence is overwhelming.


So let me get this straight. We cannot find one trace of Judeo-Christianity in Mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon time period, and the apologists tell us we shouldn't expect to find such evidence, anyhow, because the Nephites were a minor polity without such influence. And yet, somehow this minor polity that left no trace of influence in Mesoamerica, somehow impacted the Inca hundreds of years later, in an entirely different region????

This was one of Nibley's noodles he threw at the wall, in my opinion.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Gazelam
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Re: Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

Post by _Gazelam »

Beastie,

The fact is that you have studied these things far more than I ever have. Using what you know concerning the Incas, and what you know about the Temple, please give me your review on what was found in Cusco.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_collegeterrace
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Re: Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

Post by _collegeterrace »

Yong Xi wrote:Can you imagine Book of Mormon Tours to Cleveland?

No but Fair/Farms/MI's biggest threat, Rodney Meldrum, can and does!

He is such a threat that they refer to him as MR. Meldrum, not BROTHER. Pretty ad hominem eh?
... our church isn't true, but we have to keep up appearances so we don't get shunned by our friends and family, fired from our jobs, kicked out of our homes, ... Please don't tell on me. ~maklelan
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