Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Ray A

Re: Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

Post by _Ray A »

W. John Walsh also makes a specious argument Here:

Please note that while critics often claim the Book of Mormon condemns plural marriage, a careful reading of the text shows that this interpretation is incorrect. The Lord condemns plural marriage when the practice is used to gratify lustful desires for sensuality. Such perversion of a sacred doctrine violates the Lord's standards on sexuality. However, at times a divine commandment is given to "raise up seed unto" God. In such cases, the practice is not only approved, but the necessary prerequisites (e.g., patience, love, humility) leads the practitioners into deeper sanctification.


No, in the Old Testament God condemned polygamy primarily because it would lead people astray. Lust and sensuality had nothing to do with it. Can anyone have sex in an un-sensual way? (Thinking of England, for example?) Even if "the Lord approved", sensuality and lust are still there. Somehow, "holy sex" leads to "sanctification", according to Walsh. God's "yea" makes it holy. This is another urban myth from people who think that polygamy can in fact be practised "in purity". When was it ever practised "in purity"? It was a disaster in the Old Testament, and it was a disaster in 19th century Mormonism, for the most part, in my opinion, and nearly destroyed the Church. Today the Church has all but publicly disowned it.
Do you ever see official qualifications to the media that "we still believe it in principle". Let me know, because I've never found it. Did GBH ever say to interviewers "it was a holy practice", and "participated in with right intent and with the Lord's approval it is sanctifying". No, he said "it's behind us".

The early Brigham Young:

"Some of these my brethern know what my feelings were at the time Joseph revealed the doctrine; I was not desirous of shrinking from any duty, nor of failing in the least to do as I was commanded, but it was the first time in my life that I had desired the grave, and I could hardly get over it for a long time. And when I saw a funeral, I felt to envy the corpse its situation, and to regret that I was not in the coffin, knowing the toil and labor that my body would have to undergo; and I have had to examine myself, from that day to this, and watch my faith, and carefully meditate, lest I should be found desiring the grave more than I ought to do."


The later Brigham Young:

"Brother Cannon remarked that people wondered how many wives and children I had. He may inform them, that I shall have wives and children by the million, and glory, and riches and power and dominion, and kingdom after kingdom, and reign triumphantly,"
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 178.


Years after this statement, his interview with Horace Greeley:

Horace Greeley: How general is polygamy among you?

Brigham Young: I could not say. Some of those present (heads of the church) have each but one wife; others have more; each determines what is his individual duty.

Horace Greeley: What is the largest number of wives belonging to any one man.

Brigham Young: I have fifteen; I know no one who has more; but some of those sealed to me are old ladies whom I regard rather as mothers than wives, but whom I have taken home to cherish and support.


This is what defending polygamy does to people. Why? Because it is indefensible, and everyone knows it.
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

Post by _truth dancer »

This is what defending polygamy does to people. Why? Because it is indefensible, and everyone knows it.


AMEN!

I often go back to one of the great commandments given by Jesus Christ Himself (right along with numerous other spiritual masters)... do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The day a guy can honestly tell me that he would enjoy being one of a dozen or so men, getting sex, say a couple of times a year with a woman who is sleeping around with a bunch of other probably higher status men, submitting himself to the control and authority of a woman, and accepting the degradation of his plight, is the day I will think he has actually thought this through. ;-)


Thanks to all those who have made this a particularly great thread on the topic.

:-)

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Yoda

Re: Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

Post by _Yoda »

That was a very telling analysis of Brigham Young, Ray. It's interesting. I have heard all of these statements before at different times, but never shown together this way in a natural progression.

It seemed that he went from loving his wife and not being able to think of being with anyone but her, to evolving into a man who was blinded by power.

I think that BY's initial intentions to follow Joseph Smith's vision for the Church were probably genuine, but this whole practice of polygamy really poisoned the well.
_Yoda

Re: Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

Post by _Yoda »

TD wrote:The day a guy can honestly tell me that he would enjoy being one of a dozen or so men, getting sex, say a couple of times a year with a woman who is sleeping around with a bunch of other probably higher status men, submitting himself to the control and authority of a woman, and accepting the degradation of his plight, is the day I will think he has actually thought this through. ;-)


As always, TD, I appreciate your contributions on my threads. You and I think very much alike on this issue. ;)

It's interesting to note that I have had ONE TBM male friend who has actually answered honestly regarding this issue. He is the father of 7 children, and his wife became extremely ill. They both thought she was going to die. She insisted that he remarry. He said that he honestly didn't know if he could do it, but would, if she wanted him to.

He said that it was a "trial of Abraham" for him. Thankfully, his wife regained her health, and they are still very happily married. He told me, though, that he honestly could not imagine living "the principle", and hoped and prayed that the Lord would never ask him to do it.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Re: Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

Post by _Gazelam »

Christs use of polygamy:

"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. ...While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; ...And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:" Matthew 25:1-2,5-6c,10a-c (See verses 1-13).

It should be noted, however, that this is not a literal, physical marriage to literal, physical women. While it was only a parable, even so, Jesus would never have described Himself this way in a parable if polygamy was a sin.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Yoda

Re: Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

Post by _Yoda »

Gazelam wrote:Christs use of polygamy:

"Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. ...While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; ...And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:" Matthew 25:1-2,5-6c,10a-c (See verses 1-13).

It should be noted, however, that this is not a literal, physical marriage to literal, physical women. While it was only a parable, even so, Jesus would never have described Himself this way in a parable if polygamy was a sin.


Please point out anywhere in this scripture where it specifies that the ten virgins were the BRIDES. My understanding was that these women were ATTENDEES to the wedding.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Re: Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

Post by _Gazelam »

Liz,

Please point out anywhere in this scripture where it specifies that the ten virgins were the BRIDES. My understanding was that these women were ATTENDEES to the wedding.


Jewish wedding customs of Jesus' day called for the bridegroom and his friends, in processional array, to call for the bride and to take her to the wedding feast at the home of the bridegroom. As weddings were celebrated at night, those awaiting the bridegroom and his festal party would carry lamps.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

Post by _moksha »

Does anyone know if wife poaching went on in Utah, or was it just limited to the Nauvoo experience?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Yoda

Re: Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

Post by _Yoda »

Gazelam wrote:Liz,

Please point out anywhere in this scripture where it specifies that the ten virgins were the BRIDES. My understanding was that these women were ATTENDEES to the wedding.


Jewish wedding customs of Jesus' day called for the bridegroom and his friends, in processional array, to call for the bride and to take her to the wedding feast at the home of the bridegroom. As weddings were celebrated at night, those awaiting the bridegroom and his festal party would carry lamps.


Then, according to the tradition you described, if the virgins were the brides, they wouldn't be traveling alone. If they were attendees and friends of the bridegroom, it makes sense that they would each need their own lamps. They would be part of the procession.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Conflicts Within the Plural Marriage Doctrine

Post by _harmony »

*waiting for Gaz to reply to Liz*

*twiddling thumbs*

*yawning*

*blinking*

*sighing*
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Post Reply