thoughts and musings, deep and shallow

[_Ray A]

I find myself a little skeptical of this report when it includes this:

A Scientific Analysis of Homosexuality

According to Dr. Ian Stevenson, the foremost reincarnation researcher, many of children with past-life memories show abilities or talents that they had in their previous lives. Dr. Stevenson's research led him to conclude that homosexuality is a natural human trait that results from the reincarnation of a person of one gender as a person of the opposite gender. Such people must adjust to their new gender and sexuality at an early age. Former girls who are reborn as boys may wish to dress as girls or prefer to play with girls rather than boys. Former boys who are reborn as girls may wish to dress as boys or prefer to play with boys rather than girls. Former men who are reborn as women will be attracted to women and will therefore be lesbian. Former women who are reborn as men will be attracted to men and will therefore be gay.

I share your skepticism, and I think that's pure speculation. That's why I approach NDE studies with caution, but I don't think it's all bunk.

[_harmony]

Harmony, I'm sorry to read you are under the weather. Get well soon.

Thanks, lil penguin. I think most of the problem is I just worked 15 days straight, and my health just does not allow that kind of stress without me caving in. I'm feeling better now and will return to my former ornery self tomorrow, I suspect.

There sure is a lot of religious speculation out there, eh? Well, here is hoping that there is something!

Agreed. And to my way of thinking, what the leaders of the LDS church think is somewhat lower on my list of what's important than my own inspiration (which, of course, is #1 on my list).

I guess I'm just lucky that the choices I made 30+ years ago have not come back to haunt me yet. I can't be held responsible for that which I didn't know, even if I could have changed things had I known, so while those things might haunt me, I try to not dwell on them.

For the most part, I've done mostly what I want to do, so I doubt, if I'm given the opportunity to look back on my life from my death bed, that I will have much to regret.

[_harmony]

I share your skepticism, and I think that's pure speculation. That's why I approach NDE studies with caution, but I don't think it's all bunk.

I was hoping you'd join the discussion. You seem to have studied NDE more than anyone else I know from the boards.

Do you think the lack of verification by people with NDE's for anything resembling the LDS church's vision of the afterlife is significant? Even LDS people, my husband's aunt for one, don't report anything remotely like it.

[_Ray A]

Do you think the lack of verification by people with NDE's for anything resembling the LDS church's vision of the afterlife is significant? Even LDS people, my husband's aunt for one, don't report anything remotely like it.

Your husband's aunt would be in line with most other LDS NDErs. Post-NDE reports tend to be subjective, that is when "interpretations" begin. For example a person might say "I saw Jesus Christ", when in fact the "Being of Light" never said that he was Jesus Christ, but all reports indicate "He" leaves the person to their own interpretations. So religious indoctrination does play a part in interpretation. Most LDS NDErs tend to find themselves on the fringe, and become less orthodox, and view Mormonism as "one part of the whole". They also tend to gravitate more towards universalist ideas. They may remain faithful Mormons, even temple worthy, but their beliefs become broader. So the Church becomes a stepping stone to a more spiritual life (which is another common point post-NDE), good community, etc, but dogmatism tends to go out the window. I think that's the most significant difference.

The "Being of Light" also doesn't judge people, and this is one area where NDEs are in line with the Book of Mormon when it says "you will be your own judges". In fact, quite often the "Being of Light" has to comfort people for being so hard on themselves. We will be our own most stern judge. The conclusion usually is that the "Being of Light" tells them to go back, your work on earth is not finished, and sometimes tells them that now their mission will be to help others, and also report what they've experienced. They also always specify that the most important thing is to learn to love, and failing to do that is probably the greatest failing. That seems to be in line with 1st Corinthians 13, Paul's sermon on charity. No matter how great you are, how many visions and prophecies you've had, no matter how many miracles you've performed, if you have not charity, you are nothing. That seems to be "the message".

[_harmony]

She doesn't talk about it at all. It happened 30+ years ago, when she nearly died, miscarrying her 11th child.

She said she'd been greeted by her grandparents, was surrounded by family members and a great love, and didn't want to return, but was convinced that her duty lay in raising her children. She was gone for a matter of minutes, while the docs frantically tried to revive her.

That she only spoke of seeing family members seemed kinda strange to me, since among those family members are some pretty out-there characters.

Another family member of mine had an experience that, although not exactly similiar, led her to never question the existence of God and angels, as she was administered to by them after a surgery.

Neither of them ever report that those they encountered from another dimension told them anything about religion or church at all. Wouldn't you think that something like that would be important enough to at least mention?

[_Ray A]

Neither of them ever report that those they encountered from another dimension told them anything about religion or church at all. Wouldn't you think that something like that would be important enough to at least mention?

You would think so, but not mentioning the importance of religion is common for NDEs. In fact most tend to de-emphasise the importance of religion except as one "avenue" of many. Muslims tend to interpret seeing "Allah", etc., and the basic idea seems to be that religion is there for those who need it, if it will make them better people.

When George Ritchie had his NDE he was a church-goer, and one of the things he said he felt most guilty for, during the NDE, was self-righteously judging others he felt were "pagans".

Yes, I know the expression of certainty. I met a WW2 veteran who had an NDE, and he said he had "no doubt" that there's an afterlife, "none whatsoever", so real the experience was to him, but he never even mentioned God.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I've read hundreds and hundreds of NDE accounts, and spoken with many who've experienced them.

I've always thought -- and, in my interactions with them and readings of them (which have been considerable and prolonged), Mormons who work seriously on NDE studies typically think -- that, all in all, NDEs cohere extremely well with Latter-day Saint views, and I've never expected NDEs to take people to the celestial kingdom and never believed that God personally greets each and everybody who suffers cardiac arrest.

[_Ray A]

I've never expected NDEs to take people to the celestial kingdom and never believed that God personally greets each and everybody who suffers cardiac arrest.

I don't either. I think Kevin Christensen gives a fairly good summary of how NDEs compare with the Book of Mormon (not with polygamy, baptism for the dead, or later doctrines), and I think, as I noted previously, there are definitely some similarities.

From the article

Alma remarks, "God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man" (Alma 40:10). NDErs discuss the life review in terms of self-judgment. Alma treats this theme frequently, saying, "for behold, they are their own judges, whether to do good or evil" (Alma 41:7). Those who experience the life review often discuss how they felt the effects of their good and bad acts on other people.

But when I was in that review there was no covering up. I was the very people that I hurt, and I was the very people I helped feel good. . . . When I die I am going to have to witness every single action of mine again, only this time actually feeling the effects I've had on others.17

What occurred was, every emotion I have ever felt in my life, I felt. And my eyes were showing me the basis of how that emotion affected my life, what my life had done so far to affect other people's lives using the feeling of pure love that was surrounding me as a comparison.18

I've noted these parallels, but the wider NDE literature is much more complex.

Religious interpretations of NDEs

[_Alter Idem]

in my opinion, I thought George Ritchie's experience suggested different levels or what some might call "degrees" in heaven...

However, the three degrees of glory that the scriptures talk about are supposed to come after resurrection..so I'm not sure we should expect NDE'ers to know about them.

Personally, I think each of us would get a different impression of the afterlife, depending on what kind of person we are and who we encounter. Sort of like the idea that we gravitate to level we are most comfortable at.

[_Ray A]

in my opinion, I thought George Ritchie's experience suggested different levels or what some might call "degrees" in heaven...

However, the three degrees of glory that the scriptures talk about are supposed to come after resurrection..so I'm not sure we should expect NDE'ers to know about them.

Personally, I think each of us would get a different impression of the afterlife, depending on what kind of person we are and who we encounter. Sort of like the idea that we gravitate to level we are most comfortable at.

Ritchie is a firm believer in Jesus Christ, but he does not entirely agree with Mormon accounts, though he doesn't denigrate them. I think he commented in the Introduction to Elane Durham's I Stand All Amazed, and he's also commented on the work of Arvin Gibson. Gibson was criticised for placing too much "Mormon emphasis" in his interpretations of NDEs, that is seeing them all from the perspective of his personal beliefs. (We can all be guilty of that.)

No I don't think any of us knows final outcomes. It's quite possible there could be tiered levels, if you reject reincarnation, a small but factored in possibility from a few cases, and also the possibility of going on to "other spheres" of existence, the idea that earth life isn't the be all and end all after which we spend eternity in one "heaven". Other existences/experiences in other dimensions have been touted as a real possibility, supporting the idea that we progress to the ultimate goal of going back to "The One", which is God, which is where we originally came from. The idea that some will be "damned" (or stopped from progressing) for all eternity seems to me to have no place in any of the literature.