Sarah Palin: Feminist hypocrisy revealed

[_Yoda]

This is another question I would like to throw out. Are we sure that Palin is NOT Pro-choice?

The reason I ask is that even though she has made a conscious decision not to have an abortion, that doesn't necessarily mean that she fights against choice.

She is quoted as saying that she was proud of her daughter for making the CHOICE to keep her baby. Does this not imply that she had the choice to not?

Just curious. I honestly don't know what her official policy stance is.

[_MsJack]

It's interesting that you bring that up Liz. I did run across this blog post today, Sarah Palin is Pro-Choice, which I didn't completely understand at first glance. It discusses the Elizabeth Cady Stanton Act. I think the author is trying to argue that in opposing the act, some liberal feminists are helping to shut off a woman's right and ability to choose life, so Sarah Palin is more pro-choice than them in that sense? I don't like it though. Our terms are convoluted enough as it is and we should just stick with the term each side prefers for themselves. I say "some" liberal feminists because there are others who support the act.

Anyways, Palin's about as pro-life as they come. Here is the OntheIssues compilation of her statements on abortion.

[_Yoda]

Anyways, Palin's about as pro-life as they come. Here is the OntheIssues compilation of her statements on abortion.

Thanks for the link, Jack! Very informative! This gives a breakdown on how all of the candidates feel on a variety of issues, including abortion.

It's interesting that Palin has an even stricter Pro-Life view than McCain does.

[_Angus McAwesome]

I've had some more thoughts on this issue of why Sarah Palin is a feminist. So far the good folks here who have questioned her feminism have largely worked by deconstructing her resume one line at a time or in small groups. Being a woman =/= feminist. Having a career =/= feminist. Having an education =/= feminist. Having a husband and/or kids =/= feminist. Being the first woman to have a serious chance at the Vice Presidency also =/= feminist. The realization dawned on me that one could do this with the resume of any person claiming to be a feminist, take it apart line by line or in small groups and snort about how that doesn't make her feminist. Does being pro-choice make you feminist? I know plenty of people who are pro-choice and definitely aren't feminists. Women's suffrage? No again. Pretty much everyone thinks women should have the right to vote and that doesn't make them feminists. I could go out and look up all of Sarah Palin's legislation that supports women in some situation or other, and none of it would "prove" that she's feminist.

Concession accepted. Nice to see you can admit when you're wrong, Jackie.

I don't claim to be an expert on feminism, but I think I've decided this: feminism has to do with what you do in conjunction with why you do it. At the heart of feminism is the fundamental belief that men and women are equal, have equal potential, and ought to be treated equally socially and politically. Okay, let's just assume that Sarah Palin believes that, because she says she does. And then look at her life and her accomplishments.

So now we're going to make up definitions and apply them based on assumption? Ok, let's play...

Does being a working mother with kids who's running for office make her a feminist? No. Does being a working mother with kids who's running for office and sees that as an attempt to further advance the equality of women everywhere make her a feminist? Yes. Very much so yes.

Yeah, because she's totally demonstrated such with here career as a politician. Oh, wait, she hasn't. Palin (and you) can say she's a feminist, but without the action to back that claim it's as meaningless as vitriol spewing morons like Droopy claiming to be christian. Words are cheap, actions actually count. So let's see some actions on Palin's part that demonstrate she is a feminist.

Note that I'm not saying that a woman can do anything and so long as she thinks she's demonstrating equality it's feminist

Yet that is PRECISELY what you just said. Here, I'll quote you: "feminism has to do with what you do in conjunction with why you do it. At the heart of feminism is the fundamental belief that men and women are equal, have equal potential, and ought to be treated equally socially and politically."

So which is it, Jackie? Is a feminist defined by someone declaring they are feminist or is a feminist defined by their actions?

But a governor running for vice-president who says she believes men and women are equal and will advocate to that end? I certainly think that fits the bill.

More words. How does Palin getting picked out of a hat by the McCain campaign demostrate an actual feminist agenda, especially considering that Palin didn't even know she was being nominated for McCain's running mate until the last minute? Where's the actions she's performed to further sexual equality? Where are the bills she's signed into law relating to that? What policy decisions did she make as governor of Alaska or mayor of Wasilla that demonstrate this? We already know she can't run around claiming that women shouldn't be objectified, she was a friggin' beauty pageant contestant (yeah, she did it for college money, much like most of the dancers at my favorite strip club). So where are the actions that would define her as a feminist?

What's also interesting to me is the whole "but Palin's not pro-choice" objection. According to Feminists for Life, neither were Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony or Mary Wollstonecraft, they were all strongly pro-life--Anthony had a bit of nuance to her position, but was still more pro-life than anything. I've honestly been looking for a liberal feminist treatment of the notion that Palin is not a feminist because she's pro-life when compared to Stanton, Anthony & Wollstonecraft, but haven't found one yet. I'm honestly curious what those who argue this now think, but liberal feminist blogs seem to avoid mention of the pro-life positions of Stanton and Wollstonecraft; in fact they only get mentioned for cutesie quotes and lead-ins. They do mention some of the controversy on Anthony's position from time to time.

Wait, you're expecting facts from liberal or conservative talking heads now? Seriously, Jackie, and try to understand this too... If a source is openly biased towards one view or another then any information they give is inherently biased. Instead of listening to what ConfederateYankee or MoveOn.org say, do what I do and look at multiple sources, use some critical thinking, and come to your own conclusion. It'll still be biased towards what your own leanings are, but at least you'll have formed your own opinion without having it given to you by someone else.

As a final note, a piece of bi-partisan legislation that Palin surely supports (it's sponsored by Feminists for Life) is the Elizabeth Cady Stanton Pregnant and Parenting Students Act. The purpose of the act is to provide pregnant college students with financial aid, medical support and counseling so that they don't feel as if they have to choose between their babies and their education. It's currently sponsored by 7 Republicans and 5 Democrats. That seems like legislation that should square pretty well with established feminist goals.

See, that right there is the first thing I've seen that might make me thing that Palin could possibly be an actrual "feminist". She's still pro-life, but she's actually trying to grant women a better choice in the process.


Oh yeah, way to go on whining to the mods when you started a flame war and got all butthurt when you got flamed in return.

[_Yoda]

How does Palin getting picked out of a hat by the McCain campaign demostrate an actual feminist agenda, especially considering that Palin didn't even know she was being nominated for McCain's running mate until the last minute?

Just curious. Have you heard anything to the story that McCain had actually planned on picking Palin for quite a few months, but had basically thrown Romney and several other candidates out as red herrings to throw Obama off-track.

Do you think that if Obama had known that McCain was going to pick Palin, he would have picked Clinton? Now THAT would have been a fun VP debate to watch! ;)

To be honest, I think that Clinton deserved that VP spot, but that's just me. She fought a hard race, and I think that her policies would have complimented his quite nicely. I think that McCain should have picked Romney for the same reasons.

[_EAllusion]

This is another question I would like to throw out. Are we sure that Palin is NOT Pro-choice?

Yes. She's repeatedly declared herself to be pro-life, and has made it very clear she is opposed to its legality in all cases except those where the doctor has determined that a mother's life would end due to pregnancy.

[_Angus McAwesome]

Just curious. Have you heard anything to the story that McCain had actually planned on picking Palin for quite a few months, but had basically thrown Romney and several other candidates out as red herrings to throw Obama off-track.

Oh, I've heard it, Miss Liz. Thing is, unless it's confirmed buy the McCain campaign I don't buy it for a couple of reasons...

1. If this was the case, then why the mad scramble for vetting Palin AFTER she'd already been nominated. If they had planned on picking her all along you'd think they would have already gone over her with a fine tooth comb beforehand to find any dirt at all in order to plan a defense against it when the DNC found it. Seeing as the McCain campaign has been caught flatfooted on a lot of issues concerning Mrs. Palin's past, I find it highly unlikely that she was chosen ahead of time.

2. If McCain already had Palin picked and was just using Romney et al. as spoilers it would have leaked weeks or even months prior. Old saying, if more than one person knows about it, it's no longer a secret, and in Politics that maxim holds even more weight. We'd have known well before the official announcement if McCain had planned on Palin all along, someone inside his campaign would have talked and it would have been all over the news.

Do you think that if Obama had known that McCain was going to pick Palin, he would have picked Clinton?

No. Two reasons why even if he had known before hand why Obama wouldn't have taken the Hildebeast as his VP...

1. Hillary said no. She didn't want to play second fiddle and is already banking on either Obama losing this election and making another run in 2012 or waiting for 2016 and trying then in the event Obama wins.

2. Despite the smiles on TV, Obama and the Hilderbeast have waaaaay to much animosity built up between them to make an effective team.

Now THAT would have been a fun VP debate to watch! ;)

What I'm waiting for are the Presidential Debates and that famous McCain temper to manifest. I can see McCain getting so flustered that he cracks and calls Obama a "nigger" on national television. If, nay, WHEN that happens you'll be able to hear me laughing clear up in Canada.

To be honest, I think that Clinton deserved that VP spot, but that's just me. She fought a hard race, and I think that her policies would have complimented his quite nicely. I think that McCain should have picked Romney for the same reasons.

If Hilary and Obama could work past the issues between them that developed during the DNC run off, I could see them making a good team. Thing is, like I said, Hillary isn't about to play second fiddle to anyone any more and the Clintons are famous for holding grudges.

Though I gotta say the idea of a McCain/Romney ticker excites me a hell of a lot more then McCain/"Juggs" Palin does. With Romney we'd at least get someone that has experience with economics, which is going to be a key focal point for the next administration. To late now though, McGovern's run in 1972 has already demonstrated that switching running mates in a virtual death sentence for a presidential campaign.

[_MsJack]

Oh yeah, way to go on whining to the mods when you started a flame war and got all butthurt when you got flamed in return.

Welcome to my ignore list Angus. You are a sexist troll and it's very clear that attempting to dialogue with you on anything would be a precious waste of my time. I realize that will inspire a "WAH, you can't handle me!" post, but hey, you're a troll. That's what you do.

You were the one who started in with the name-calling and then dropped it to blatant gutter talk; your post went exactly where it deserved to go, and you can't even deal with that gracefully.

Have a nice life.

[_MsJack]

Just curious. Have you heard anything to the story that McCain had actually planned on picking Palin for quite a few months, but had basically thrown Romney and several other candidates out as red herrings to throw Obama off-track.

The McCain camp has said Palin was in the top 2 for months. I understand that liberals won't just trust what the McCain camp says directly, but it is verifiable that Palin was a dark horse favorite among conservatives for months. For example, see this Hot Air poll from May 29. McCainPalin.com has been up for months hinting that Palin would be the pick, and there have been a few "draft Palin" web sites and blogs for a while. I can't find the link right now, but there was even one guy who looked at the potential pool of candidates in mid-2007 and concluded that McCain would get the Presidential nomination and Palin would be the best VP pick. Most right-wing blogs brought up the possibility of a Palin pick several times over the course of the year.

My own pet theory? McCain misdirected everyone on purpose. The media was caught totally off guard because they never pay attention to right-wing blogs. They were sure it was going to be Pawlenty or Romney or Jindal, and they had their talking points against those candidates all ready to go, and they were pissed when the Palin pick came and they actually had to do some homework on the weekend. So they threw a fit insisting that McCain made the decision at the last minute. "If we didn't know about this, how could McCain have possibly known??"

They may have also seen it as a betrayal of McCain's formerly good relationship with them, but I knew the media would kick McCain out of bed once he became the Republican pick.

Do you think that if Obama had known that McCain was going to pick Palin, he would have picked Clinton? Now THAT would have been a fun VP debate to watch! ;)

To be honest, I think that Clinton deserved that VP spot, but that's just me. She fought a hard race, and I think that her policies would have complimented his quite nicely. I think that McCain should have picked Romney for the same reasons.

I don't think Clinton ever would have accepted playing second fiddle to Obama even if he'd offered. If Obama had known the McCain pick was coming, he might have gone with Sebelius, but I'm not sure. Joe Biden has actually grown on me a bit in the weeks since this election started and as Democrats go, I kind of like him. I can see why he was picked.

[Guest]

This is the last time I'm defending myself from your misogyny nonsense EA. My comment only meant that I view motherhood as a powerful feminine expression, and just because I think motherhood is a very feminine thing doesn't mean I think motherhood is the only valid expression of being a woman or the best expression of being a woman. You seem determined to put words into my mouth no matter what I say, so I'm done.

Your language suggests that being a mother is major trait of femininity. I've already quoted it. It's only an expression of being "feminine" because the term by definition refers to women. Likewise, fatherhood is an expression of masculinity. But the same thing could be said of any gendered title, such as stewardess or policeman. If we use gender neutral language and ask, "What is more feminine than being a parent?" I think what is being said is clear.

Oh come on EA. You're just blind to the flaws on your own side.

Not really. As I said, you're relying on a false equivalence. One side has been much worse about this than the other. I didn't say Obama's surrogates haven't engaged in it, because I know they have. Are you looking for a quotation war? I do agree with Biden's quote incidentally, and the Slate article you mention was being hyperbolic while referring to a very real phenomenon. If it wasn't for race, the internal polling suggests Obama would be up significantly more than he is. To reduce a hypothetical loss into this sole factor would be ridiculous, but it almost certainly will be a factor that is enough to tip the balance since McCain isn't likely to win with anything but a slim margin. Returning to the main point, I think ironically you are being blind to the flaws on your own side. Obama's team couldn't get away with shrieking race like the McCain campaign has tried to use sexism. Their campaign has received some backlash over it because of how ridiculous they got, so I'm not sure if they can get away with it either.

Know of any major right-wing blogs that have posted hateful racial fantasies about Barack Obama being a dumb slave who picks cotton and is called "boy"?

I know of people, including one conservative woman, who fantasize about having sex with Obama because the guy is attractive. I think that is the equivalent. If you are looking for main right wing sources that have said really racist things about Obama, I'm willing to supply a several, but I don't think that's what you are going for. That said, I'm sure sexist things have been said about Palin. I've seen 'em. I'm talking specifically about how sexism is being inappropriately used as a retort to non sexist criticism almost reflexively. It's transparent they are trying to capture some of the phenomenon that worked to Clinton's advantage (it only takes a few % of voters to matter) while simultaneously finding a way to defend the position of weakness they are operating from with her vulnerabilities.

I'll have to get back to you on this one EA.

Here's what I think. You can't directly tell if a person is a feminist without seeing some extensive history of feminist advocacy or agreement to some ideas that form the core of what we are getting at when we talk about feminism. It's a loose term, but there are borders. Normally, we just take a person's word for it when they call themselves a feminist, but I think the circumstances require some skepticism in this case. Unfortunately, simply saying, "I support equality for men and women" isn't enough because people who are anything but feminists have coopted that language to refer to what is essentially separate "but equal" roles for men and women. You're not going to be able to tell where Palin is without more detail than we have access too or some definitive statements we lack the luxury of having. It's not especially important, but I think that's where it stands.

Last I checked she's a big name in the liberal feminist movement (if a dissenting one), and she has no problem granting her the title feminist.

Paglia's a feminist. But her argument here sucks, which isn't a terribly uncommon thing for Paglia. She's at her best when taking Dworkin-style feminists to task.