Why HAVE the apologists sold out for Central America?

[_marg]

Before J. Smith ever mentioned the idea of Book of Mormon geography taking place in Central or South America it was mentioned in Eber Howe's book Mormonism Unvailed, published in 1834. John Miller worked for Solomon Spalding and talked with Solomon about the book as well as listened to him read it aloud often.

http://www.mormonstudies.com/author2.htm

John Miller made this statement: "When Spalding divested his history of its fabulous names, by a verbal explanation, he landed his people near the Straits of Darien, which I am very confident he called Zarahemla, they were marched about that country for a length of time, in which wars and great blood shed ensued, he brought them across North America in a north east direction" (Howe 1834, 283). Lester Bush comments: "One of Hurlbut's sources recalled the group landing near the 'Straits of Darien' (now Panama), reflecting an early interpretation of Book of Mormon geography shared by Eber D. Howe, among others. (Joseph Smith reportedly placed the landing near Valparaiso, Chile.)" (Bush 1977, 44). Bush will not allow us to believe that Miller might have actually received his information from Spalding. This would prove that Miller was not remembering the Fabius story, which takes place in North America. No, the idea must have been planted in Miller's mind by Howe, although Howe did not interview Miller, and Bush provides no evidence that Howe made any reference to the Straits of Darien prior to receiving Miller's statement from Hurlbut. John Miller must have been a very impressionable and imaginative man, if he not only accepted a hint from Howe and Hurlbut, but also invented an entire conversation with Spalding around this hint. If this is Bush's position, it is not believable. Two years after Mormonism Unvailed was published with Miller's statement and one reference to the Straits of Darien by Howe, Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt were toying with the idea that Lehi had landed near Valparaiso, Chile. If Miller knew in 1833 that Lehi landed near the Straits of Darien, why didn't Joseph Smith publish this information before 1842?

[_beastie]

Beastie, you often site the population and polities of Mesoamerica as one of the biggest factors in the Book of Mormon not being true.

Have the apologists bothered to refute this, and if so, what is their argument?

As far as I know, they haven't bothered to refute my assertion that only Mesoamerica had the prerequisite population density in the specified time region, because they can't. Of course they don't admit that is THE reason it must be Mesoamerica. That would be admitting that all their persuasive "hits" aren't that persuasive after all. They may admit that only Mesoamerica had the prerequisite population density, but insist there are many, many, many other reasons to support the Book of Mormon being set in Mesoamerica. However convincing they may believe those other reasons may be, the fact is that the population density question is THE deal-breaker. It's the litmus test.

But here's my challenge to anyone who doubts that what I have stated is correct, ie, that only Mesoamerica had the prerequisite population density to construct socially complex societies with layers of bureaucracy: name one other place, anywhere in North or South America - that had a similar population density during the Book of Mormon time frame.

Be careful, now. We're talking about population density, not overall population levels.

[_beastie]

by the way, I personally believe that the author of the Book of Mormon intended the New England region to be the setting. Critics of the hemispheric model are correct when they state that the distances mentioned in the Book of Mormon don't match the hemispheric setting. I think the book was written to explain the background of the Moundbuilders.

[_Daniel Peterson]

On the Spalding theory, a useful essay is Matthew Roper's "The Mythical 'Manuscript Found,'" in FARMS Review 17/2 (2005):

http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=2&id=584

[_Scottie]

On the Spalding theory, a useful essay is Matthew Roper's "The Mythical 'Manuscript Found,'" in FARMS Review 17/2 (2005):

http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=2&id=584

Have you given any thought to Beasties criticism?

[_marg]

by the way, I personally believe that the author of the Book of Mormon intended the New England region to be the setting. Critics of the hemispheric model are correct when they state that the distances mentioned in the Book of Mormon don't match the hemispheric setting. I think the book was written to explain the background of the Moundbuilders.

Hi Beastie, I thought at one time you agreed with Vogel that Smith was the likely main Book of Mormon author. If so, I would think that if Smith were the author he would have been quite sure where the storyline took place, which is one main reason I don't think he was. So do you think Smith was the main author?

[_beastie]

Hi Beastie, I thought at one time you agreed with Vogel that Smith was the likely main Book of Mormon author. If so, I would think that if Smith were the author he would have been quite sure where the storyline took place, which is one main reason I don't think he was. So do you think Smith was the main author?

No, I agreed with Vogel that Smith could have been a pious fraud (my opinion on that shifts quite a bit, still uncertain, don't believe I'll ever have a firm, final opinion). I have leaned towards Rigdon as the primary author for some time now.

[_bcspace]

What, in your opinion, did Adam practice?

Not Christianity. No scholar worth his salt would argue this, because the evidence simply isn't there.

But the POGP states that Adam had "the gospel". And that Christianity was known since the time of Adam. In all its fulness! This, mind you, was at a time when Jews didn't even believe in an afterlife, at all, much less with specific grades of salvation.

The serpent religion of Kain triumphed over the Yahweh believing line of Seth so you won't see much glaring evidence for sure, but even there you see the gospel perverted. The difference being the serpent's wisdom, given to Eve, is revered.

You don't see the 19th century influences, BC?

Sure I do. Who or what is Shiloh?

[_Ray A]

Sure I do. Who or what is Shiloh?

That's a bit cryptic.

[_bcspace]

Not to those who can type the word in a scripture search.