Church goes after signingforsomething.com owner ...

[_Trevor]

Absolutely. He should have shut up and followed the orders he was given. Now he shall driven out despite his lamentations. These dissidents must be dealt with in a proper manner.

[_The Nehor]

Bye. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Right on! The apostasy of opposing a political position of the Church. Questioning sheep are to leave the flock if they bleet. Stay out of our pastures.

Read what he said and what he claims he did. This is more then disagreeing with the Church which probably would not have been noticed. He is actively seeking to change the Church's policy. He claimed to be organizing opposition against the First Presidency. He admits he tried to deceive the Church to draw attention to himself.

I for one appreciate the guy's honesty. He's not even pretending to be a poor driven off sheep. He proudly claims to be a wolf. Drive him out, I say.

[_Scottie]

I for one appreciate the guy's honesty. He's not even pretending to be a poor driven off sheep. He proudly claims to be a wolf. Drive him out, I say.

The church needs to change. It is disgusting. Your God is a sick, twisted bastard that delights in creating beings with urges, then denying those urges. Who does that??

[_The Nehor]

I for one appreciate the guy's honesty. He's not even pretending to be a poor driven off sheep. He proudly claims to be a wolf. Drive him out, I say.

The church needs to change. It is disgusting. Your God is a sick, twisted bastard that delights in creating beings with urges, then denying those urges. Who does that??

If this justifies his subversive and manipulative tactics then please say so outright.

[_asbestosman]

Your God is a sick, twisted bastard that delights in creating beings with urges, then denying those urges. Who does that??

Well, I know there are some attractive people who like to mess with others that way by being a tease (and no, I don't think that makes the tease deserves anything except to be ignored).

[_Rollo Tomasi]

You missed what I said earlier. Read what he said from the link you provided. According to it his stated goal was not just to oppose Prop 8 but to get the Church to oppose Prop 8:

"I will NOT cease my actions to stop them from supporting Proposition 8..."

I didn't read this as trying to get the Church to oppose Prop 8, but trying to get the Church to butt out of politics.

Trying to usurp Priesthood keys is a SERIOUS offense in the Church.

How in the hell does wanting the Church to stay out of politics "usurping Priesthood keys"? Are you serious?

Let me ask you this. Do you think the Church has the right to expel someone who actively and publicly advocates premarital sex and uses his standing as a High Priest to give credibility to his teaching?

If in the context of one's having the right to have premarital sex without governmental interference, then yes. What anti-Prop 8 folks (including Flatlander) are doing is trying to save equal rights and protection in CA. For myself, allowing gay marriage is an issue of equal protection under the law. I don't see my taking that position as "advocating" homosexuality (although I think one has the right to choose to do so) anymore than my pro-choice views would mean I advocate a woman's getting an abortion.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

He is actively and publicly opposing the Church's teachings and using his Priesthood office to give his opposition credibility.

No he's not. He's simply speaking out on a political and civl right issue. And that he said he was a HP is just a fact -- it doesn't add to his credibility. I mean, he reveals he's a HP, and at the same time reveals he's been called in to a court and probably will be excommunicated. That pretty much would shoot down his credibility among TBM's.

This is breaking the Priesthood order he joined and seeking to take upon himself Priesthood keys he does no possess.

I know of nothing in our "Priesthood order" that made us abdicate our God-given right to speak up and make our views known, including dissent.

He is breaking his covenant to stand as a witness for the teachings of Christ revealed by modern Prophets and seeks to subvert their teaching to bring it into harmony with his views.

Christ has said nothing to the Brethren about getting involved in political and legal issues -- the Brethren have made that decision all by themselves.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

He also derides the Church as a secretive organization filled with intrigue.

There are an awful lot of secrets. From the public: the temple ceremonies. From the members; the CHI, second anointing, the "files" at the SCMC, Church finances, etc.

Why does he care if they excommunicate him.

Sounds like he has dedicated a significant part of his life to the Church. Why should he go. The Church is as much his as any other member or leader, including the Brethren.

Also, the culture of fear he portrays is a joke. For the SCMC to scare the members into line you would think the Church would make sure that the members KNOW about this organization. Most have no idea. In fact I bet less then 5 members of my ward even know the name.

They only need to scare the fringes, not the TBM's.

Then he admits he lied to manipulate the Church to try to get more people to go to his website. KICK HIM OUT!!!!

"I'm just dumb as a door." -Flatlander

"I tricked them into getting whatever I wanted" -Flatlander

He's right though -- raising a public stink is the only way to the get the Brethren to listen (if you do it through a private letter to Salt Lake, they just send it to your bishop and tell him to deal with it (of course, the offending member does not get a copy of that letter)).

[_The Nehor]

He is actively and publicly opposing the Church's teachings and using his Priesthood office to give his opposition credibility.

No he's not. He's simply speaking out on a political and civl right issue. And that he said he was a HP is just a fact -- it doesn't add to his credibility. I mean, he reveals he's a HP, and at the same time reveals he's been called in to a court and probably will be excommunicated. That pretty much would shoot down his credibility among TBM's.

This is breaking the Priesthood order he joined and seeking to take upon himself Priesthood keys he does no possess.

I know of nothing in our "Priesthood order" that made us abdicate our God-given right to speak up and make our views known, including dissent.

He is breaking his covenant to stand as a witness for the teachings of Christ revealed by modern Prophets and seeks to subvert their teaching to bring it into harmony with his views.

Christ has said nothing to the Brethren about getting involved in political and legal issues -- the Brethren have made that decision all by themselves.

HAVE YOU READ WHAT HE SAID AND WATCHED THE VIDEOS?!?!?!?!

His goal is to alter the Church's stance, not speak out on an issue. He declares this OPENLY. He openly admits that he lied to Church leaders to manipulate them to his own ends. He also states that he thinks his court is over his opposition to Prop 8. I find it more likely that it is due to his insane attempt to pretend to be part of an organization seeking to overthrow the First Presidency which HE ADMITS DOING.

The man is a loon. Stop trying to make this guy an innocent bleating sheep. HE IS A SELF-CONFESSED WOLF!!!!!!

(Maybe the use of lots of capital letters will make people stop repeating endless cliches and actually look at this guy's website and what HE said he was doing as opposed to what critics like to think he did to make him into a martyr)

[_Rollo Tomasi]

You mean I trust that they had the revelation they said they had rather then follow a crazy string of evidences about BYU sports and somehow figure that the Apostles were so worried about it that they caved? Then I am delusional.

Too bad a monumental "revelation" like that hasn't been written down and published. According to accounts of apostles there, it sounds like the "revelation" was nothing more than the 'warm fuzzies.' Pretty anticlimactic.