thoughts and musings, deep and shallow

[_harmony]

I've read hundreds and hundreds of NDE accounts, and spoken with many who've experienced them.

I live with the one who was administered to by angels. She tells very few people; she simply won't talk about it.

I've always thought -- and, in my interactions with them and readings of them (which have been considerable and prolonged), Mormons who work seriously on NDE studies typically think -- that, all in all, NDEs cohere extremely well with Latter-day Saint views, and I've never expected NDEs to take people to the celestial kingdom and never believed that God personally greets each and everybody who suffers cardiac arrest.

How does being administered by angels cohere well with LDS views of the afterlife? Or my husband's aunt, who met with her family members, some of which weren't all that righteous when they were alive?

[_Dr. Shades]

Thanks for sharing with us, Ray. Interesting stuff, as usual.

[_Daniel Peterson]

How does being administered by angels cohere well with LDS views of the afterlife?

How does it not?

Or my husband's aunt, who met with her family members, some of which weren't all that righteous when they were alive?

That doesn't bother me a bit.

I lean toward quasi-universalism, anyway.

[_harmony]

How does being administered by angels cohere well with LDS views of the afterlife?

How does it not?

I asked you first.

I lean toward quasi-universalism, anyway.

What is quasi-universalism?

[_Gazelam]

Everything I have read has said that a family member will come to collect you and show you around when you die.

Also it will be very obvious as to who lived a life of charity and kindness towrds others by the degree to which the light of Christ shines forth from them. This will no doubt affect ones judgement of themselves.

[_Ray A]

On the subject of reincarnation (hope this isn't too much of a diversion, but I didn't want to start another thread), one of the most intriguing cases I've come across was that of James Leininger.

I noted that Cold Steel on MADB posted the You Tube links on MADB, and most of the reactions from LDS posters was very skeptical. "Programmer" (the first reply to the thread), for example, after making a very significant admission ("I didn't read it") (There was nothing to read, it was two You Tube videos) wrote:

I didn't read it.

Reincarnation is a false doctrine. It runs completely counter to the concepts of the Pre-Earth Life, a mortal probation, and everything else in the plan of salvation. The Holy Ghost never has and never will confirm the notion of reincarnation. On the Other hand, the father of lies will easily and willingly whisper lies to those with itching ears, who want to believe in something that requires no modification of behavior on their part. Such a belief system, like all other false beliefs never requires a person to modify their behavior to conform to the will and mind of the true God, and his Son Jesus Christ. such a belief system is in fact a perfect road to hell and all its miseries and trials.

No one should ever be deceived to walk that path.

I studied the James Leininger case in some detail when I worked as a researcher for my brother two years ago, and though I'm still somewhat skeptical about reincarnation, this is one of the more baffling cases I've read. He isn't, incidentally, the only such case. Equally compelling cases have been examined, but James' stands out among many. You may remember, too, that General George Patton was a firm believer in reincarnation, and believed that he fought on the same battlefields in WW2, as a soldier a couple of thousand years before.

James Leininger:

You decide:

REINCARNATION, past life evidence, PART 1

REINCARNATION, past life evidence, PART 2

One LDS critic noted that anyone can post anything on You Tube, which is true enough, but the Leininger case has been the subject of study long before these You Tube videos. Hope it works okay as You Tube seems to be doing some "maintenance".

I think the study of subjects like these (NDEs/Reincarnation) are worthwhile, though I realise that for most it's "loony-land". I don't blame those who think this. One of the problems for Mormons (hence Programmer's and others' skepticism) is that it (at least reincarnation) is contrary fundamental LDS beliefs. But this shouldn't be a reason to avoid looking at the evidence with an open mind. Likewise NDEs, and their scope, and the question of whether they fit strictly within the range of LDS theology, or have much wider implications.

If this is too much of a diversion from harmony's thread, maybe the mods can place it in a new thread.

[_JustMe]

I actually don't find the idea of reincarnation to be all thatbad anymore. I'm open to seeing both sides. I think actually, upon deeper reflection that it has a sense about it. Can't quite put my finger on it, but it's rather fascinating.

[_harmony]

If this is too much of a diversion from harmony's thread, maybe the mods can place it in a new thread.

Not at all, Ray.

I think reincarnation and the Christian concept of an afterlife both have their roots in the same fear: is this all there is? and in the same desire for more... more than the few years we know we have because we're still living them.

The idea of living for eternity, like those who sacrificed their lives in their present and lived polygamy in hopes of a better eternity, even though they didn't want to, just strikes me as so damned sad. So I was doing some introspection, trying to see if I was doing the same thing, only justifying it to myself. And at this point in my life, I'm finding it difficult to really come to terms with it.

I mean, I lived my life the way I wanted to... had my family, went to college and got my degrees, found a job that suits me very well. I don't think I missed too much... but how do I know that? How do I know what I don't know?

There's this guy, ya know? He's got a voice like melted butta' (you know... deep and sexy), and whenever he calls, I'm hard pressed to concentrate on what he's saying. I tend to get lost in the voice... and then my office mates laugh at me, because I have to apologize and focus on what he's saying, which is so embarrassing. But damn! The possibilities in that voice! (It doesn't help that he calls me hon, and dear, and sweetie, teasing gently like Daniel does... except I don't think Daniel has a voice like melted butta'!) So I'm left wondering about possibilities that I might have pursued, were I a different person.

*sigh*

damn.

[_Ray A]

So I'm left wondering about possibilities that I might have pursued, were I a different person.

I think we all wonder about that, harmony. If I could go back in time with the knowledge I now have, I'm certain my choices would have been very different. But at the time I made those choices, in naïve youthful years, they were the best for me at that time. I've learned a lot both from life and my Mormon experience, marriage, raising childen, yet the idea of "redoing" all of that is painful. I dread even the thought, probably because I've learned from it what I had to learn. And undoubtedly in ten years time (if I'm even still here) I'll not want to return to where I am now. For this reason, it's always better to count your blessings and cut your losses, and learn from the past. And you know the saying, "those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it". Maybe that's one of the "reasons" behind the idea of reincarnation? This is what Buddhists believe, in any case, that if you don't "get it" this time around, you'll have to keep coming back until you do.

Choices made at 20, will be different to those made at 50. There's not much point wondering how different it might have been, anymore than there is wondering what the world would have been like without World War Two. One thing two "great wars" has done is so far delayed us going into a Third one. So we must have learned something in that sense.

[_harmony]

For this reason, it's always better to count your blessings and cut your losses, and learn from the past...

[snip]...

Choices made at 20, will be different to those made at 50.

Yet how can I learn from the past, if my choices in the past were made based on a different understanding than what I now have? I mean, many of my choices were based on knowing that Joseph was an honest, upstanding, honorable man... and now I know that's a fairy tale. I used to think prophets were in tune with God, on a direct line so to speak. But now, I know that's not so. So many things have changed, because what I truly believed turned out to be just smoke and mirrors... men trying hard to maintain a facade that crumbles before the harsh glare of reality. So my reality was essentially built on sand. So I cling to my own values, my own relationship with God, and my love of my family.

So that leaves me with a host of choices that now present themselves (like a man with a voice like melted butta') that previously I'd have dealt with swiftly with no thought of any other way. But now...

Damn.