If the Almighty doesn't exist

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_Roger Morrison
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Re: If the Almighty doesn't exist

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Marg, Thanks for the site, & for your post, from which a piece is below, (UL added by RM):

Pressing questions include the reasons, whether theistic or non-theistic, that the exceptionally wealthy U.S. is so inefficient that it is experiencing a much higher degree of societal distress than are less religious, less wealthy prosperous democracies. Conversely, how do the latter achieve superior societal health while having little in the way of the religious values or institutions? There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms (Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002). It is the responsibility of the research community to address controversial issues and provide the information that the citizens of democracies need to chart their future courses.



Recently reading statements of the USA's founders--as seperate from the "discoverers" of North America--and statements of the founders of Mormonism, I found it awesome that both parties subscribed so earnestly to "manifest destiny". (Mormons, double-barrelled, in the USA AND themselves!)

Even more amazing, the majority of US leaders continue to do so. (Some more than others?) IMSCO, there is little hope for the US of A as long as they live such a fantasy. In denial of the falacies congruent with such arrogance and national narcissism upon which, generally speaking, USA's socio-political culture exists, they are not only deteriorating socially and morally themselves, but are a threat (albeit not the only one) to our shared world.

(Last night--Wed. Sept, 3--I watched the Rep. VP canditate spectacale. Foot-ball mentality in the extreme, at least in my opinion. An unbelievable nonsense-orgy of pubescent swoonism... From this hoopla one is supposed to judge the qualities of "Leadership"??? Really folks, how?? Granted, Canada, indulges the same festivities--2 wrongs don't make a right :-)

The use of the term, "other Democracies..." in the article sited by Marg, might jab some US citizens & leaders to acknowledge there are other Democracies, & even some non-Democracies, that rank higher on the scale of social developement than do they. (USA)

As competing sectarianism gives way to enlightened cooperating secularism, the world will evolve in spite of repressive religious dictates that now fall upon a better educated world citizenry.

The fear of the Religious Right that this will result in debaucheries of every kind is fantasy. Just look around at our advancements. They were-not/are-not inspired by Evil-spirits but by persons morally applying the laws of science.

That there is "Evil" in the world is not a religious issue, it is a social challenge. The one that was never solved by public beheadings/ hangings; the village centred "stock" or lashes in the wood-sheds; dunking to determine innocense or guilt; confession boxes; disfellowships/excommunications, etc etc...

I respectfully suggest when exposed to such ideas and attitudes expressed in the writings of the likes of Sager--(?) Correction: Prager re continued adherance to "old-time-religion", study it out in your own mind as an indepent person, and ask, "why didn't those religiously impossed relics, listed above, work?" Because there was no "God" behind them!!!

Why can we depend on the sciences???? Time tested and proven dependable... The things that "God" (by any name--Science ;-) IS behind... Roger

(Edited to correct & clarify.)
Last edited by DrW on Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't...
"God": nick-name for the Universe...
_Jason Bourne
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Re: If the Almighty doesn't exist

Post by _Jason Bourne »

I am not to hung up about this. I thought in a short article Prager made some reasonable points. The article was not a treatise and certainly much more time is needed to make demonstrate cause and effect. But I think the theory is reasonable.

Not only did you think Prager's points reasonable Jason but you thought them so good they deserved being posted, in a whole new thread.


Mind reading now are we marg? No I posted them because I thought it would spark some interesting discussion.

It is religious propaganda you've bought into Jason


You really do not know what religious "propaganda" i believe and do not believe so drop the condescension marg.


that leads you to your arrogant assumption and rather stupid agreement with Prager


It is veery funny to watch you of all posters call someone arrogant. Talk about personal attacks. And no marg I did not attack you. I just stated a fact. I find your tactics of almost EVERY TIME a point is different than yours it is do to lack of critical thinking or reason plain and simply boring. That is it. If that offends you than perhaps you should consider your style.

who frankly is a moron when it comes to argument addressing "atheism" ....that religion positively correlates with high moral values in people while non belief in an interfering God positively correlates with poor moral values/deleterious consequences. The following study does not support this assumption of Prager's which you seemingly gleefully have accepted apparently absent any attempt at thoughtful consideration.


My study of history and the lack of religious belief in almost all of the worlds most despoitc dictators that murdered millions lends me to conclude that their atheistic ideals may have contributed to a lack of restraint. I have not empirical data to back it up. Just a hunch. If that is not good enough for you I am not to worried about it.
_marg

Re: If the Almighty doesn't exist

Post by _marg »

Roger Morrison wrote:Marg, Thanks for the site,



Roger I got the link from the link GoodK posted which was a debate between Sam Harris and Dennis Prager. One of the commenters posted a link to an article I believe from the Skeptic magazine and the source cited of the article was the link I gave. Sorry for not going back and getting each individual link, but you can follow up if you are interested.
_marg

Re: If the Almighty doesn't exist

Post by _marg »

Jason Bourne wrote:

My study of history and the lack of religious belief in almost all of the worlds most despoitc dictators that murdered millions lends me to conclude that their atheistic ideals may have contributed to a lack of restraint. I have not empirical data to back it up. Just a hunch. If that is not good enough for you I am not to worried about it.



Jason, a few atheist despotic dictators is not a representative sample group of all atheists. You are drawing a conclusion about a large group which have existed over a period of time.. atheists, which number probably in the hundreds of millions but you are using an extremely small unique group of 10 - 20 people who share many other variables which you don't consider and conclude only that atheism was the direct cause of their complete lack of concern for the lives of others. Frankly this unique group, dictators have little in common with the average atheist. And further, just because you see a correlation between despotic dictators who have had millions murdered and atheism and maybe a correlation exists, does not mean there is a cause and effect relationship between atheism and an inclination to murder.

I did a quick search on "cause and effect" and came across this site which you might benefit from reading. http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/logic_causation.html I'll take some key points out from it.

"The problem is that correlation is different from causation. Correlation is when two or more things or events tend to occur at about the same time and might be associated with each other, but aren't necessarily connected by a cause/effect relationship. For instance, in sick people, a runny nose and a sore throat correlate to each other--they tend to show up in the same patients. That doesn't mean runny noses cause sore throats, or that sore throats cause runny noses, however. Forgetting that leads to sloppy thinking."

"The point to all this is that, if you are writing an argument, and you claim a cause-effect relationship exists, you should double-check and triple-check that it is causation and not mere correlation. It's hard to nail down causation conclusively, as evidenced by tobacco company lawyers who argued for forty years that smoking merely "correlated" to lung cancer rather than actually caused it. However, the least you can do is pause and ask yourself what other possible causes exist in addition to the one you point to in a paper. If they do exist, you need to think through the evidence and determine why these other causes are less likely than the one you propose."
_marg

Re: If the Almighty doesn't exist

Post by _marg »

As I mentioned to you Jason I would reply to you in this thread rather than Harmony's thread. I'll link to it later.


Jason: “Actually I did not agree with him(Dennis Prager) on all points and as noted posted it more for discussion purposes and as a personal test to see who swarmed and pounced. You did not disappoint.”

***First of all Jason, the majority of people who responded to you in the thread disagreed with you that Prager made good points. I didn’t see you respond to any of them. Chap, Some Schmo, Silent Kid, GoodK, Roger Morrison, Gad. You did respond to me when I asked you what good points Prager made.

I addressed the first point you listed of Prager’s which was “What one almost never hears described are the deleterious consequences of secularism — the terrible developments that have accompanied the breakdown of traditional religion and belief in God.[/b] For every thousand students who learn about the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials, maybe two learn to associate Gulag, Auschwitz, The Cultural Revolution and the Cambodian genocide with secular regimes and ideologies.[/b] For all the problems associated with belief in God, the death of God leads to far more of them.


I argued that he failed to establish a cause and effect between “stopping belief in God” or atheism and “deleterious consequences”.

You responded by dismissing that point with your words “I’m not too hung up about this” and then continued on to attack me personally instead of staying on issue, because I had criticized Prager’s reasoning in his argument.


Marg previously: “since when I tried to engage you you simply asserted your beliefs and showed no interest in discussion.”

Jason’s response: Hardly. You there as you always do, bloviated about your superior critical thinking and reasoning skills. I had no interest in discussing the things you brought up with YOU marg and only YOU because you are a bore to debate with.

***What a liar you are Jason. It wasn’t only me you had no interest in discussing with, it was just about everyone in that thread. Did you discuss with anyone? I mentioned Prager's reasoning was faulty, and then attempted to begin to explain why. You pounced on that little bit, in order to attack me and apparently avoid the actual issues.


Marg previously: “According to you (if I remember correctly) despotic dictator regimes such as Stalin's and Hitler's proved atheism leads to evil immoral societies and that was that, you weren't going to think about or discuss it any further.”

Jason’s response: Your critical thinking skills that you are so proud of seem to have damaged your memory.

***Well these were your exact words Jason “My study of history and the lack of religious belief in almost all of the worlds most despoitc dictators that murdered millions lends me to conclude that their atheistic ideals may have contributed to a lack of restraint. I have not empirical data to back it up. Just a hunch. If that is not good enough for you I am not to worried about it.”

And since you agree with Prager and his point that the death of God leads to deleterious consequences far greater than anything associated with religious belief and he links atheism to Hitler and Stalin and it being responsible for the atrocities of those regimes, I think I pretty much summed up how you view atheism as well. And I also think I was correct that you had no interest in thinking further on this or discussing it..given that you wrote “ I have not empirical data to back it up. Just a hunch. If that is not good enough for you I am not to worried about it.”

My last post was about the difference between correlation versus causation which was directly relevant to this issue but no comment from you on that.
_Roger Morrison
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Re: If the Almighty doesn't exist

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Marg, good luck on resuscitating this thread after 20 days. I hope you do, as I think there is REAL relevance with Prager's premise and the current USA crisis... Has to do with fantasia and denial. If that can be faced...

Roger
Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't...
"God": nick-name for the Universe...
_Jason Bourne
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Re: If the Almighty doesn't exist

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Jason’s response: Hardly. You there as you always do, bloviated about your superior critical thinking and reasoning skills. I had no interest in discussing the things you brought up with YOU marg and only YOU because you are a bore to debate with.

***What a liar you are Jason. It wasn’t only me you had no interest in discussing with, it was just about everyone in that thread. Did you discuss with anyone? I mentioned Prager's reasoning was faulty, and then attempted to begin to explain why. You pounced on that little bit, in order to attack me and apparently avoid the actual issues.



No Marg I am not a liar. And you are rude. You cry about being attacked personally yet you frequently make personal attacks.


Here is what you said in your first volley:

I'm only going to address # 1 for now.
Jason, Dennis Prager has not "proved" anything
.


I note that I never said he proved anything. I also noted that the item I posted was an opinion piece not a disertation on every point. I noted that I had no interest i debating each point in detail as well.

He fails to establish a cause and effect between "stopping belief in God" or atheism and "deleterious consequences." He fails to connect secular gov'ts & ideologies as a cause to the deleterious consequences such as Gulags,Auschwitz, the Cambodian genocide (the effect). He asserts that Gulags, etc were caused by regimes which lacked religious belief but doesn't explain the connection or why there is or should be a cause and effect as a result of lack of god belief or organized religion. Since God belief/theism, organized religion doesn't prevent crime, murder, wars, genocides etc then it doesn't automatically follow that atheism, lack of organized religion should be a cause of such behaviors.



He may well have failed to prove it. It was an opinion pieace as noted for about the fifth time. It was not a book on the topic.

Dennis Prager's reasoning is extremely poor and faulty, do you not see that?


Here is why I responded to you in this thread the way I did and why I did so on Harmony's thread as well. You are a snob and condescending. Every time you post you add "your reasoning is poor" and on this one you added your condescending "do you not see that" which implies anyone who does not see it is stupid or as you note on the other thread, a religious idiot.

My comments stand Marg. You are a bore, over bearing and totally unpleasant to discuss anything with. I have no doubt you are smarter than I am on these issues and will admit I am not ready to discuss the philosophical aspects of all this nor provide detailed empirical data to back up the points. Typically I avoid discussing the existence of God because I beleive God cannot be proven at all. I regret posting Prager's comments at all.

But even were I better equipped to debate these issues I would not debate them with you. So carry on if you wish but I am not going to engage you. The only reason I said anything on Harmony's thread is because of the total priggish arrogance you reflected in the comments about religion being idiotic and religious believers being idiots. If you are unable to understand who your total arogfandce does little to foster discussion with most people I cannot help you.

Carry on.
_harmony
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Re: If the Almighty doesn't exist

Post by _harmony »

Jason Bourne wrote:My study of history and the lack of religious belief in almost all of the worlds most despoitc dictators that murdered millions lends me to conclude that their atheistic ideals may have contributed to a lack of restraint. I have not empirical data to back it up. Just a hunch. If that is not good enough for you I am not to worried about it.


If one doesn't have a reverence for life for whatever reason (belief that life is God-given, life is sacred, etc.), what is to keep one from destroying life without regard for the consequences? Very little. One need only look to the millions slaughtered, displaced, robbed by greedy arrogance when there is no fear of retribution. One doesn't even have to go back in history to find examples of man's inhumanity to man. The situation in Africa today is a fine example.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_ajax18
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Re: If the Almighty doesn't exist

Post by _ajax18 »

Justifying our inaction by posthumously blessing those we could have saved and giving an unknown God authority to punish those we could have stopped - nuts.


I go back and forth on that paradox as well. Of course I don't think that the fact that God will ultimately set things right means that we should not try to set things right here. And yes I've seen believers guilty of what you're describing.

But there is another side to this problem. I'm not capable of setting everything exactly right. Knowing that it will be set right is the most peaceful and comforting knowledge I ever gained.

As long as I believe in doing what I can do, I don't see any disadvantage to being comforted in the belief that God will do the rest.

There is another advantage. Fear of death does not stop me from asserting and defending my rights. This makes it even more difficult for the people users and abusers of this world to control and manipulate me.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_antishock8
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Re: If the Almighty doesn't exist

Post by _antishock8 »

From the Hate Mail section of http://www.normalbobsmith.com:

I've come to feel that the simplest response is that the entire plan-o-salvation is just plain old poor planning.

Face it, if their God is a true God then it has no needs, no desires. Simply, if a god wants anything then it simply Genie blinks it into existence, ex nihilo. So if Biblegod wants human company plodding up and down the streets-o-gold then he simply creates that condition. Somehow a plan that calls for the endless suffering of more than 90% of all humans that will ever inhabit this rock that represents a terrible waste of material and time. But, looking at how many humans he intends to broil for eternity, it appears that that was its plan all along.

People who are stuck within the meme of religion are unable to examine the cruel nature of the biblegod in truth. Remember how America shuddered when Andrea Yates drowned her 5 children so they would be assured of going to heaven? She was merely acting after the manner of the god she worshipped. Her god drowned all of those babies, puppies and kittens in a childish fit of rage and we make nursery wall paper to commemorate it and teach children to adore such a wonderful tale of genocidal cruelty. We sent Andrea to jail. I've asked people how they would receive it if I got pissed off at my neighbor and burned my son to death in the oven to vent my rage and give my neighbor a second chance. That one isn't too well recieved but it is the equivalent of their plan-o-salvation.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
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