Scratch, DCP, and the IRS

[_Jason Bourne]

Please note the bolded part about paying other person such as a management services company. Is such a case it is REQUIRED to be listed as if pad to the officer even though it was not. Seems like FARM paying BYU but listing Peterson as the receptient is the correct presentation. Are you ready to concede your error here?

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, Jason. As I said earlier, I am unsure as to whether or not the FARMS accountant did anything wrong. As you'll recall, it was DCP who suggested that was the case.

So, while it may very well be accurate to say that CPAs take "'creative' liberty" with the facts, the truth is that this doesn't really fall into line with what the IRS expects. What CPAs do and what the IRS expects aren't necessarily the same thing.

Looks like the CPA did it the way he was supposed to.

Are you sure? Did you also inspect, say, the 1997 FARMS 990 form? For all I know, the CPA *did* do a good job. But, given DCP's statement that he was fired, I guess it is only fair to wonder about this a bit.[/quote]



Wow Scratchy. Did you read the instructions as you said? It took me all of about three minutes to find what I posted and that said if the NFP pays a fee for the chairman or other directors time to a management company or another organization the 990 shows it as if paid to the chairman. Isn't that what you have been whining about? That the 990 said 20,000 was paid the Chairman, one DCP. And that one DCP says it was not paid to him but to BYU. I have just demonstrated this is the case and yes I did look at the 1997 Form 990.

I submit that unless you concede this point and apologize to Dr Peterson it will certainly demonstrate that you are not interested in truth. Rather it will prove you are on a spinning smear campaign regardless of facts and will perpetrate character assassination regardless.

[Guest]

Kudos to Jason Bourne for definitively putting Scartch's accusation to rest.

This is truly a watershed moment in the history of Scartchoplexy. Well done!

And now to tie up a few of the nonsensical loose ends:

Would it therefore be fair and accurate to say that you have always earned more than you have donated?

I can't afford to donate more than I earn.

Can you?

I am unsure as to whether or not the FARMS accountant did anything wrong. As you'll recall, it was DCP who suggested that was the case.

No I didn't.

For all I know, the CPA *did* do a good job. But, given DCP's statement that he was fired, I guess it is only fair to wonder about this a bit.

I've expressly said -- more than once, I think -- that our dismissal of the accountant had absolutely nothing to do with this or any other IRS document. And I'm not even sure that the accountant who prepared this document is the accountant we dismissed.

Then how do you explain the "incessant character attacks" issue by FARMS and other Mopologetic outlets?

If Scartch can find any "character attacks" in, say, Jack Welch's recent volume on The Legal Cases in the Book of Mormon or in the recently-published Daniel C. Peterson, ed., The Book of Mormon and DNA Research, or in any of Royal Skousen's volumes in the Book of Mormon Critical Text Project -- and, since FARMS "character attacks" are "incessant," they've got to be there -- I will be deeply impressed.

[_Jason Bourne]

Kudos to Jason Bourne for definitively putting Scartch's accusation to rest.

This is truly a watershed moment in the history of Scartchoplexy. Well done!

Thank you.

Now, given Scratch's propensity to drive things right into grinding ground you might want to save the post where I quote the Form 990 instructions. But it can be found on http://www.irs.gov. All I did was search for Form 990, found the instructions and clicked on the table of contents where is said payments to chairmen, directors and board member.

Honestly this is really getting a bit silly. Obsession is the key word here.

[_The Nehor]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at, Jason. As I said earlier, I am unsure as to whether or not the FARMS accountant did anything wrong. As you'll recall, it was DCP who suggested that was the case.

Are you sure? Did you also inspect, say, the 1997 FARMS 990 form? For all I know, the CPA *did* do a good job. But, given DCP's statement that he was fired, I guess it is only fair to wonder about this a bit.

And the movie finally gets started and in the first Act he does not escape the trap. A transparent attempt to willingly misunderstand DCP's comment to cloud the issue and a lie that DCP suggested that the accountant submitted fraudulent documents. Sorry Scratch. Remember, that was YOUR accusation.

Stay tuned for more action.

[_MAsh]

Then how do you explain the "incessant character attacks" issue by FARMS and other Mopologetic outlets?

Sorry... don't see it. There certainly may be a few a few instances, but nothing that could be considered "incessant."

It's ironic that one of "Mister Scratch's" regular complaints about FARMS is that they supposedly engage in ad hominem (just do a search of this board with his name & "ad hominem" to see how many times he makes this accusation),

You deserve praise for your fine-tuned sense of irony, Brother Ash. I'm glad you "get it."

Oh, I get it alright. I see that you mistakenly (I'm hoping mistakenly rather than willingly) refer to argument, rhetoric, and matters of intellectual history as "ad hominem" yet you, yourself, hypocritically engage in actual ad hominem. This is ironic because you supposedly abhor--what you mistakenly refer to as--ad hominem from mopologists.

Mike Ash
www.ShakenFaithSyndrome.com

[_Daniel Peterson]

Here's what I wrote via PM to the participant here who kindly brought Jason Bourne's deflation of Scartch to my attention last night:

Ah, 'twas a thing of beauty!

I expect that Scartch won't concede much, if anything, but it'll be amusing to see how he handles it.

I predict that he'll simply move on to another angle of attack -- possibly after briefly going silent.

I add to this that I wouldn't be altogether surprised to see him repeat his false charge on this point after he thinks a safe interval of time has elapsed.

(I'd be happy to have my expectations proven wrong, of course.)

For the record, in summary: The many other accusations that Scartch has leveled against me over the past two or three years or so have been just as false as this one.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

It is totally legit. This happens all the times. It also happens in businesses that may be related somehow when say a manager or CEO works for one company but also puts time in another. He may draw all his salary out of one but the other pays say a management fee to the company that is paying the manager/CEO paycheck.

I do not profess to be a tax lawyer or tax expert. But I can read the English language, and I've read the 1998 Form 990 filed by FARMS.

My review of the 1998 Form 990 for FARMS (the one which showed that DCP received $21,400, comprised of of $20,400 in compensation for service as "Board Chair" and a $1,000 honorarium) still makes me wonder about this debate. For example, there is no mention of BYU anywhere in the Form 990 (other than grants to BYU profs). Moreover, FARMS answered "No" when asked if the Form 990 is "a group return filed for affiliates." Later in the return, FARMS is asked whether it "directly or indirectly engage in any of the following with any other organization described in section 501(c) of the [IRS Code]." Included in "the following" was this activity: "Sharing of facilities, equipment, mailing lists, other assets, or paid employees." FARMS responded "No."

It seems that many here think the $20,400 reportedly paid to DCP resulted from some sort of sharing arrangement between BYU and FARMS for DCP's services and time. If that were true, wouldn't FARMS have had to answer the above question about "sharing paid employees" with a "Yes"? In any event, unless someone can produce evidence of accountant error or fraud (other than claiming it just ain't so), FARMS's 1998 Form 990 reflects DCP was paid $20,400 for his services as "Board Chair" of FARMS.

EDITED TO ADD: by the way, this information came from Part VIII of the 1998 Form 990 filed by FARMS.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Wow Scratchy. Did you read the instructions as you said? It took me all of about three minutes to find what I posted and that said if the NFP pays a fee for the chairman or other directors time to a management company or another organization the 990 shows it as if paid to the chairman. Isn't that what you have been whining about? That the 990 said 20,000 was paid the Chairman, one DCP. And that one DCP says it was not paid to him but to BYU. I have just demonstrated this is the case and yes I did look at the 1997 Form 990.

As I noted above, wouldn't this kind of information (if true) have been included in Part VIII of the 1998 Form 990 filed by FARMS? FARMS answered "No" to all those questions, but if such an arrangment with BYU existed FARMS should have answered "Yes," right? Again, I'm no tax expert, so feel free to educate me.

[_Yoda]

Wow Scratchy. Did you read the instructions as you said? It took me all of about three minutes to find what I posted and that said if the NFP pays a fee for the chairman or other directors time to a management company or another organization the 990 shows it as if paid to the chairman. Isn't that what you have been whining about? That the 990 said 20,000 was paid the Chairman, one DCP. And that one DCP says it was not paid to him but to BYU. I have just demonstrated this is the case and yes I did look at the 1997 Form 990.

As I noted above, wouldn't this kind of information (if true) have been included in Part VIII of the 1998 Form 990 filed by FARMS? FARMS answered "No" to all those questions, but if such an arrangment with BYU existed FARMS should have answered "Yes," right? Again, I'm no tax expert, so feel free to educate me.

Just curious. Has anyone pulled BYU's tax forms? That might answer the other piece to this puzzle since you guys are so curious.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Just curious. Has anyone pulled BYU's tax forms? That might answer the other piece to this puzzle since you guys are so curious.

Are they public? I know that once FARMS was sucked up by BYU, its forms were no longer availabe.