If the Almighty doesn't exist

[_marg]

Jason, this issue of atheism being responsible for tyrannic regimes I haven't given much thought to. My objective in getting involved in this thread was to develop an understanding of the issue. I haven't read much on it. As far as this personal stuff of 'you don't like the way I discuss' ..that's fine...but the main problem with your ad homs is not the actual ad homs it is that they were obviously used to avoid addressing the issues.

Now I've got 2 books handy with a few chapters that address the esssential issue of this thread, which tonight I'll read. I would like you to read and think about a previous post I made which linked to a site on "cause versus correlation". It is an important concept. Just because 2 events are or seem correlated does not mean that one is the cause of the other. Harmony brought up religious reasons she thinks helps prevent people from killing "belief that life is God-given, life is sacred" and that absence of those reasons she argues leaves people with nothing to prevent them abusing others. After I read and think about this issue further I will respond to her argument and anything you might have to say.

[_solomarineris]

Sorry to inform you of this concrete fact.
Nobody is coming after we are dead, except worms. Even they will have hard time to get in those armored caskets, eventually they'll get there.

I can almost guarantee this fact. However being an honest skeptic, I leave some room for veracity of this intangible god.
If by any chance he exists, I want to be the first to burn in his eternal hell.
I look forward to feel third degree burns every second.

I don't think I can hate enough this (make-believe) god, which caused so much pain & suffering for humanity.

[_Roger Morrison]

Harmony said:

If one doesn't have a reverence for life for whatever reason (belief that life is God-given, life is sacred, etc.), what is to keep one from destroying life without regard for the consequences? Very little. One need only look to the millions slaughtered, displaced, robbed by greedy arrogance when there is no fear of retribution. One doesn't even have to go back in history to find examples of man's inhumanity to man. The situation in Africa today is a fine example.

Is the suggestion here that only believers in the Judeo-Christian god have reverence for life? If so then I suggest that is a faulty conclusion. I also suggest that many in that group have little reverence for life, other than their own & those of their tribe.

"...regard for the consequences..." in this mortal life, or in some other--the next life?

"...no fear of retribution..." comes with the power to make/control the laws. "Power corrupts et al." Parts of Africa are example of primitive, autocratic thinking, not disbelief in a god.

America is victimized by the same thinking, wearing different clothes. Such misguided folks believe in--and teach about--a god that has led America to believe that competion, not cooperation, is the way to "life, liberty & the pursuit (not attainment) of happiness."

Such a homily is in direct contrast to the teachings of Jesus and of every other Sage of their age. However that entrenched philosophy serves some VERY WELL at the expense of many who just can't run fast enough in the inhuman race.

IF this is not becoming more obvious by the moment, then farewell to the Free In The Home Of The Brave...

Ti's interesting how the governance of America is so dependent on the belief in a false "God", and a mythology that mystifies?? A nation of anti-Christians?? All is not well in Zion!!
Respectfully suggests, Roger

[_marg]

My study of history and the lack of religious belief in almost all of the worlds most despoitc dictators that murdered millions lends me to conclude that their atheistic ideals may have contributed to a lack of restraint. I have not empirical data to back it up. Just a hunch. If that is not good enough for you I am not to worried about it.

If one doesn't have a reverence for life for whatever reason (belief that life is God-given, life is sacred, etc.), what is to keep one from destroying life without regard for the consequences? Very little.

But we already know harmony that belief in God does not turn people into pacifists. And we know that belief in God and membership to a religious group did not/does not prevent religious affiliated groups from warring against others outside their group.

Also are you saying that atheists in general have no concern for human life because they have no belief system incorporating a supernatural entity?

One need only look to the millions slaughtered, displaced, robbed by greedy arrogance when there is no fear of retribution. One doesn't even have to go back in history to find examples of man's inhumanity to man. The situation in Africa today is a fine example.

And what are you saying? In your opinion is atheism or theism a factor in this example you give? Could you please explain to me what you see as the situation in Africa today and how that relates to either theism, atheism or religion?

[_Roger Morrison]

How about:

Since, "the Almighty doesn't exist" we have a world such as it has been, and currently is. One that geophysically seems to run itself quite orderly, and dependably. We can, and do, set our clocks by it, since there is no Wizard to interfere in its order. (As was imagined by superstitious primitives, and recorded in their mythology.)

At the same time--amidst the varieties of 'life' supported on this orderly planet, that in turn depend on the order-of-things for their brutish survival, in peace--there is a life form of super intelligence: Humanoids.

This life form has, through the ages, been somewhat disruptive to-the-order-of-things on one hand, while on the other rather crudely mastering, and exploiting the order. Often to the detriment of other life forms. Doing so with belief in a Wizard that directed their activities and approved their actions, as all was supposedly according to the Wizard's Grand Plan.

All of this in a realm where there is in reality NO Almighty Wizard. Which makes one wonder, what might things be like IF there was an "Almighty"?

Can't help but wonder... Roger :-)

[_marg]

My study of history and the lack of religious belief in almost all of the worlds most despoitc dictators that murdered millions lends me to conclude that their atheistic ideals may have contributed to a lack of restraint. I have not empirical data to back it up. Just a hunch. If that is not good enough for you I am not to worried about it.

If one doesn't have a reverence for life for whatever reason (belief that life is God-given, life is sacred, etc.), what is to keep one from destroying life without regard for the consequences? Very little. One need only look to the millions slaughtered, displaced, robbed by greedy arrogance when there is no fear of retribution. One doesn't even have to go back in history to find examples of man's inhumanity to man. The situation in Africa today is a fine example.

Well I'm going to resurrect this thread again. I'm still not understanding your point harmony. Most of the places in Africa have significant religious majority population of either Christian and/or Muslin, as far as I know. Can you inform me differently? And if that's the case then your point fails. Jason's/Prager's point fails as well. A few atheist dictators are not representative of atheists generally. With your rationale the jails should be filled with atheist murderers.

Do you really think harmony that the only reason you don't murder is because you have a religious belief in an interfering God? Is that really the only thing stopping you?

[_antishock8]

Marg,

You make a good point. The vast majority of people committing horrendous crimes in Africa are religious. I don't think their religious inclinations are doing anything to prevent suffering from happening, and in the case of Muslim atrocities being committed, justification by the believers is actually found in the Quran and Hadiths.

- Pirates are celebrating Eid, and justifying their pirating through Quranic mandates to kill and harrass the kafir.

- To this day Arab Muslims in Africa (and well, everywhere) are saying that all nations that don't acknowledge Muhammed are sinners, and it's the DUTY of Muslims to harrass, kill, convert or enslave the kafir Christians and Pagans in, say, Darfur to name one place, to the tune of about a million slaughtered. This theme has played itself out over and over again as tens of millions have been killed in Africa since Islam first arrived with Arab traders, followed in short order by the sword.

- Chrisitan Rwandans, as we all know, killed each other with alarming barbarity as Tutsis hacked away at Hutus, quite literally, until half a million or more were slaughtered. Religion certainly didn't quell man's unrest in that case, either.

------- Back to the point.........

Of course the Almighty doesn't exist. He or It is about as real as a hobbit or a unicorn. He or It certainly doesn't intervene in matters that are moral to us, namely, avoiding death, mutilation, rape, poverty, disease, etc... In fact, religiosity has the opposite effect, preventing common sense solutions such as birth control, the end of slavery (being practiced right now by Muslims), polygamy, etc ad nauseum...

I think Man does what Man does. And that's that. Religion provides a structure to his activities, whether they be good or bad. The point is it can be a powerful ideology, and if the normative architecture of the religion lends itself to pacifism then its adherents will likely tend toward pacifism. If it's an aggressive and dogmatic mechanism then its adherents will likely tend that way. As with any ideology a religion should be scrutinzed heavily by anyone who values individual liberty, civil rights, and peace.

[_Danna]

for what it's worth This is the CSH Humanist Manifesto.

[_Roger Morrison]

Antishock said;

I think Man does what Man does. And that's that. Religion provides a structure to his activities, whether they be good or bad. The point is it can be a powerful ideology, and if the normative architecture of the religion lends itself to pacifism then its adherents will likely tend toward pacifism. If it's an aggressive and dogmatic mechanism then its adherents will likely tend that way. As with any ideology a religion should be scrutinzed heavily by anyone who values individual liberty, civil rights, and peace.



I meant to use "Quote"... But maybe it deserves UL, eh?? Good advice. 2 sides to every coin.

Roger

[_marg]

Of course the Almighty doesn't exist. He or It is about as real as a hobbit or a unicorn. He or It certainly doesn't intervene in matters that are moral to us, namely, avoiding death, mutilation, rape, poverty, disease, etc... In fact, religiosity has the opposite effect, preventing common sense solutions such as birth control, the end of slavery (being practiced right now by Muslims), polygamy, etc ad nauseum...

I think Man does what Man does. And that's that. Religion provides a structure to his activities, whether they be good or bad. The point is it can be a powerful ideology, and if the normative architecture of the religion lends itself to pacifism then its adherents will likely tend toward pacifism. If it's an aggressive and dogmatic mechanism then its adherents will likely tend that way. As with any ideology a religion should be scrutinzed heavily by anyone who values individual liberty, civil rights, and peace.

I agree with you antishock. What about the argument being made by Prager, that "atheism" or lack of a belief system in the supernatural or absence of religious belief can lead to greater abuse, inhumanity against man than when one has a religious belief system which may have some good moral advice? If people act upon beliefs, and if as you say those who believe in a pacifist religion are likely to tend that way then what about atheists? What are they likely to tend towards pacifism or aggression and why? I don't know the answer, but throwing out some ideas I'd say a good standard of living by a stable economic environment would be important, opportunities for good quality of life, good education are what enable atheists to live fulfilling lives absent religion. I have and have always had an excellent quality of life, never wanting for anything really and religion is not something I need or miss. Having seen the movie Religulous today, Maher made a comment which just came to mind. He said he feels his lack of belief is a luxury. He's got a good life and he doesn't need it. I think that is a good point. I still don't know what the best argument is against those who say atheist lack a belief system and so anything goes.