Another Tvedtnes Masterpiece

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_bcspace
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Re: Another Tvedtnes Masterpiece

Post by _bcspace »

Scartch doesn't do substance well, and he shouldn't be faulted for his incapacity.

His strength is gossip and personal attack, as is (redundantly) demonstrated here.


That I am well aware of. (Can be very entertaining though. by the way, what happened to the dossiers?) I just wanted to counterpoint the surrealism of the underlying metaphor.
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_harmony
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Re: Another Tvedtnes Masterpiece

Post by _harmony »

liz3564 wrote:
Gad wrote:You know, Mister Scratch, when I read these things I recall my days as a youth in the Chapels of Mormonism and watching one of those ward plays about the plan of salvation. The guy playing Lucifer was really getting into it and singing, "..and give all the glo-o-ry to meee! Give it to me!!!"


*wincing* "My Turn on Earth"....I was the Assistant Director and Vocal Coach for a private production of that show when I attended BYU.


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_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Another Tvedtnes Masterpiece

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

So was Tvedtnes wrong in his assessment of the work?
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Another Tvedtnes Masterpiece

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

I believe that Mr. Walters has overstated the case when he claims that Joseph Smith was well acquainted with the Bible because of his early Methodist involvement. Though I have been an avid Bible reader since the age of eight (with earlier exposure through Bible classes with the Assembly of God), I have only recently come to realize how much of the Old Testament is reflected in the Book of Mormon. I typically read the Bible once a year and the Book of Mormon once or twice. Extensive academic preparation has also given me insights unavailable to the general public.


Presentism, anyone? In his recent McManis lecture, Dr. Timothy T. Larsen wrote the following of Victorian Britain (I can't say how much this applies to the US during the same time period, but I'd guess the two were fairly analogous):

the more I have studied it, the more I have come to realize that it would be hard to set any limit on the extent to which Victorian culture was shaped by a shared knowledge of the Bible. The Scriptures were a significant presence throughout people’s entire lives. In the beginning was the Word. It was standard practice for Victorian children to learn to read on the Authorized Version (often called the King James Version in America) of the Bible. The Bible was the primary text in schools. Universal state education was not enacted until 1870. Before that time, many poor children received all the formal education they would ever have from a church. It must be borne in mind that Sunday schools originally really were schools. Children worked all week long and then learned to read by going to a church-run school on their one day off, Sunday. Not surprisingly, the Bible was central at Sunday schools. Some poor children were able to attend a proper, day school as well. The vast majority of these weekday schools were run by a denominational or non-denominational Christian charity, and also used the Bible as their main text.

[Dr. Larsen goes on at great length giving further evidence, but the above is representative.] [...]

The Bible, therefore, was the common cultural currency of the Victorians.


By contrast, Dr. Larsen says of modern biblical literacy,

it has been demonstrated that biblical literacy has continued to decline yet further since 1985. Gallup polls have tracked this descent to a current "record low". Not even able to get started with the canon in either testament, most Americans now cannot name the first book of the Bible and half cannot name even one of the four Gospels. Stephen Prothero, professor of religion, Boston University, highlighted this in a 2007 article in the Los Angeles Times which was bluntly entitled, "We live in the land of biblical idiots".


Joseph Smith didn't need "extensive academic preparation". And if Tvedtnes really read the Bible as a youth as much as he says he did, it's hard to believe that he didn't notice how much it is reflected in the Book of Mormon. I can only suppose that in reading through his quad as a young adult, the Bible and the Book of Mormon blended together for him as they do for so many Mormons, so that he was not aware enough of the line between them to notice where the one intrudes into the other. (If so, that just brings the point home!) When I read the Book of Mormon for the first time as a sophomore in high school, there was nothing in it that stood out quite as starkly as its biblical influences.

-Chris
_JustMe
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Re: Another Tvedtnes Masterpiece

Post by _JustMe »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Scartch doesn't do substance well, and he shouldn't be faulted for his incapacity.

His strength is gossip and personal attack, as is (redundantly) demonstrated here.


I can't possiblt agree more with an assessment than yours here. Perhaps I am too hard on the poor guy. I know a lot of Tvedtnes's work, as well do you, and I have seen nothing here representative of his excellent scholarship, not to mention yours. Incidentally, I am in the process of putting together more videos, this time on the Council of the Gods, and your discussion of Psalm 82 and John 10 in the Richard Lloyd Anderson Festschrift, is certainly going to see the light of day. I haven't seen this excellent piece of scholarship analyzed much by critics. I suspect its obviously beyond Scratch and Gad's capabilities to get. I have gathered a multitude of sources you cited (isn't this the one that James White accused you of having an entire group doing the research for you because he didn't think one man could do all that research?) and some news ones in recent years. It is seriously one of the finest supports for Joseph Smith's interesting doctrine ever presented! The Biblical scholarship on this Council of the Gods is magnaminous, to say the least! Kudos also to FARMS for allowing both David Bokovoy and Michael S. Heiser discuss it in their pages! As usual, simply great work you all do there at the institute. There absolutely are those who really appreciate all your work and efforts.
_The Nehor
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Re: Another Tvedtnes Masterpiece

Post by _The Nehor »

liz3564 wrote:
Gad wrote:You know, Mister Scratch, when I read these things I recall my days as a youth in the Chapels of Mormonism and watching one of those ward plays about the plan of salvation. The guy playing Lucifer was really getting into it and singing, "..and give all the glo-o-ry to meee! Give it to me!!!"


*wincing* "My Turn on Earth"....I was the Assistant Director and Vocal Coach for a private production of that show when I attended BYU.


If you ever need to talk about it I'm here. Accepting it is the first step to recovery.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
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_Henry Jacobs
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Re: Another Tvedtnes Masterpiece

Post by _Henry Jacobs »

Daniel Peterson wrote:His strength is gossip and personal attack, as is (redundantly) demonstrated here.


Since you're pointing that out, you must be above making personal attacks, huh?

Daniel Peterson wrote:Scartch doesn't do substance well, and he shouldn't be faulted for his incapacity.


Never mind.
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