Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Ray A

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:One of the most powerful Mesoamerican volcanic explosions, Ilopango, affected 4,970 square miles. This should provide some perspective on just how massive that explosion would have had to be.


That was one of the volcanoes I studied, as I recall, it was the closest I could find to 30 AD, but still outside the 200 year gap I offered.
_Ray A

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Ray A »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Over the past few years I've picked up tantalizing hints of evidence suggesting a substantial volcanic event in Mesoamerica within 100 years, plus or minus, of the time of Christ. But I don't know where such studies stand at the moment.


I'll go back to my drawing board and post some more information later, and you can let me know what you make of it.
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _beastie »

That was one of the volcanoes I studied, as I recall, it was the closest I could find to 30 AD, but still outside the 200 year gap I offered.


Yes, it was too late to account for the 30 AD destruction, but it is very instructive in terms of possible impact, and helping us to ascertain how realistic the Book of Mormon's description is. The devastation of the Book of Mormon far exceeds Ilopango, and yet even Ilopango rewrote Mesoamerican history by forcing the population to shift towards Yucatan. It isn't just the immediate impact that causes problems, but the subsequent, long-term issues of redirected water supplies, climate, and affected soil. Yet the Book of Mormon has people rebuilding the cities directly impacted within decades. This was written by, as BH Roberts once said, a naïve mind.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_JustMe
_Emeritus
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:37 am

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _JustMe »

beastie
This was written by, as BH Roberts once said, a naïve mind.


So do you believe what Roberts wrote about the Book of Mormon now? Or just the negative aspects? Isn't this selective choosing?
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _beastie »

So do you believe what Roberts wrote about the Book of Mormon now? Or just the negative aspects? Isn't this selective choosing?


As I stated pretty clearly, I agree with BH Robert's statement that the Book of Mormon was written by a naïve mind.

by the way, if you're going to demand that people have to accept all of whatever a given individual may have had to say about Mormonism, David Whitmer is going to cause you a great deal of grief.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Ray A »

Just in case we're not getting the extent of the destruction:

3 Nephi 9

1 And it came to pass that there was a voice heard among all the inhabitants of the earth, upon all the face of this land, crying:
2 Wo, wo, wo unto this people; wo unto the inhabitants of the whole earth except they shall repent; for the devil laugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen!
3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.
4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be sunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.
5 And behold, that great city Moronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.
6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;
7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them.
8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.
9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their wickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their secret murders and combinations; for it was they that did destroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to destroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.
10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations.


All caused by earthquakes and volcanoes, the latter so great that three days of complete darkness followed. It seems beyond credibility that all this could have occurred and not left a trace in the mapping of 10,000 years of volcanology.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I'm by no means a vulcanologist...


I was going to do something naughty with this phrase, but I'm trying to be a good lil girl.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Daniel Peterson
_Emeritus
Posts: 7173
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:56 pm

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Ray A wrote:It seems beyond credibility that all this could have occurred and not left a trace in the mapping of 10,000 years of volcanology.

I don't think anybody's saying that it left no trace, Ray.

But I've suggested that the evidence may be more difficult to read and, to this point, less thoroughly and completely read, than you seem to be assuming.
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _beastie »

Oh, well, perhaps those traces will finally be found one day along with the much-hoped for horse dating. Maybe Dr. Jones can handle this one, too.


"One day my prince will come... in the millennium...."
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Ray A »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I don't think anybody's saying that it left no trace, Ray.

But I've suggested that the evidence may be more difficult to read and, to this point, less thoroughly and completely read, than you seem to be assuming.


I'm trying not to assume too much, Dan, only reading what the experts have said. My understanding is that every volcano on earth has been mapped (obviously with the aid of satelite too), and we know about their history going back thousands of years. (Not accounting for those that appear and disappear, which are usually of a much smaller scale.)

This Dynamic Planet.

You can magnify the charts and see the dating yourself.

Is there uncertainty? Yes:

The earthquakes and volcanoes that mark plate boundaries are clearly shown on this map, as are craters made by impacts of extraterrestrial objects that punctuate Earth's history, some causing catastrophic ecological changes. Over geologic time, continuing plate movements, together with relentless erosion and redeposition of material, mask or obliterate traces of earlier plate-tectonic or impact processes, making the older chapters of Earth's 4,500-million-year history increasingly difficult to read. The recent activity shown on this map provides only a present-day snapshot of Earth's long history, helping to illustrate how its present surface came to be.

Both the front and back of this map illustrate the enormous recent growth in our knowledge of planet Earth. Yet, much remains unknown, particularly about the processes operating below the ever-shifting plates and the detailed geological history during all but the most recent stage of Earth's development.


The "present day snapshot" goes back 10,000 years, and "early history" refers to beyond that.

Another case: Disastrous Mini Ice Age around 536 AD, Caused by Volcanic Megablast

The Krakatoa eruption may have been just a child play compared to the volcanic megablast that spread havoc in the human civilization around 536 AD. Its volcanic cloud could have triggered a global chill that caused famine in half of the world's population. An international research published in the journal "Geophysical Research Letters" has found sulphates, molecules representing marks of an eruption, in Greenland ice.

This is the first physical evidence for the A.D. 536 event, which according
to ancient texts from Mesoamerica, Europe, and Asia, brought on a cold darkness that doomed crops, triggered wars, and boosted disease spread. The debate was whether the disaster had been caused by a volcano or an asteroid clashing with Earth.


"There is no need at the moment to invoke a large-scale extraterrestrial event as the cause, because the evidence is conclusive enough to say that it is certainly consistent with it being a large volcano," said co-author Keith Briffa of the University of East Anglia in the United Kingdom.

The ice Greenland sulphates were found to have been deposited between A.D. 533 and 536, matching a sulphate maximum level encountered in Antarctic ice. As the volcanic ash reached both poles, this means that the blast is likely to have occurred near the Equator. Other proofs are delivered by tree rings from the Northern Hemisphere, revealing lower growth rates for over a decade around year 536. But the cooling effect was not encountered in the southern hemisphere, too.

The data shows that this eruption was even more powerful than the biggest historically recoded volcanic eruption, that of the Indonesian Mount Tambora (2,865m or 9,550ft tall) from the Sumbawa Island. On the 10th of April, 1815, the mountain blew out, ejecting its peak into the atmosphere at a height of 1,250m (4,160ft)! The cataclysm was marked with 7 on the Volcanic Explosivity Index (VEI) scale (volcanologists classify eruptions, depending on their violence, on a scale from 0 to 8) and at the moment killed 12,000 people. Subsequently, 80,000 people died of hunger. About 150-180 cubic kilometers of debris were projected into the stratosphere, dimming the sky and depriving the Northern Hemisphere of summer.

Asteroid or volcano?

Some still sustain the space impact theory.

"To cement their case, volcano advocates will need to find ash layers deposited by the blast," said Ken Wohletz, a volcanologist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, while the new evidence strongly supports a large volcanic eruption.

Historical texts say that the volcanic cloud lingered for over a year. Chinese historians mention famine events and summer frosts for years following the event. By the same time, a horde of Mongoloid Turkic nomads, the Avars, coming from Mongolia, invaded Europe, founding an empire in central Europe (in today Hungary and surroundings). Probably the nomads were forced out by drought or lack of vegetation growth under the blackened skies in their homeland steppes. Some even put the decline of the Mesoamerican city of Teotihuacan on this. The rise of Islam could have also been favored by this event.
Moreover, a similar eruption would cause similar effects today, as we are even more vulnerable than ever. Agriculture would fall worldwide, and transportation and communication systems would be impeded.

"Most aircraft cannot fly in [volcanic] dust clouds. And these dust clouds have a large electrostatic potential that disrupts radio communication," said Wohletz.

And even the technological advances are impotent in impeding such a disaster, or in dwindling its impact.


I'm no vulcanologist either, but reading reports like this, complete with Mesoamerican texts describing the effects of the far away volcano, seems to add weight to the idea that if something similar had occurred in Mesoamerica itself, at the time of Christ, we would surely have a record of it.

Edit: Here is the report in National Geographic
.
.
.
.
Post Reply