Sunstone has Don's presentation available for $4.00. (It has mine for the same price, by the way. Shameless plug!) Or you could probably email him and ask for a copy.
LifeOnaPlate wrote:Actually, not. Find a statement by Joseph Smith than makes such a claim. We have second hand explanations, but you said Joseph "clearly claimed" such and such. Do you have a primary source from Joseph Smith himself making such a claim?
I take it you are suggesting that Joseph's closest companions and participants in the translation process didn't know what he claimed, and so were making stuff up? Yes; we know they made up the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, so why not this, too? I'm sure the scribes were just pursuing their agenda to discredit Joseph in the minds of future generations. Part of the vast left-wing conspiracy, no doubt.
CaliforniaKid wrote:Sunstone has Don's presentation available for $4.00. (It has mine for the same price, by the way. Shameless plug!) Or you could probably email him and ask for a copy.
Should I shamelessly ask both of you for a copy? I think Don is a vigorous student of Mormonism, but I don't have his email address and will have to search for it, or wait for the article to come online. I very seldom use credit cards online, and always do so with hesitation.
... I certainly don't think spiritual experiences, or having "heart confidence", is uniquely special to Mormonism.Nor do I. I think it's an individual thing. As do i. Some of the most spiritual people I've met were Buddhists, and in my city we have the largest Buddhist temple in the Southern hemisphere. I've visited it a few times, and I can honestly say that the experience there was comparable to anything I experienced in Mormon temples. The sanctuary and sense of peace is like a piece of heaven apart from a world gone mad. .
I think it imperitive to know HIS answer to that question. I'll try and find out. Anyone's help will be appreciated...
Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't... "God": nick-name for the Universe...
Roger Morrison wrote:I think it imperitive to know HIS answer to that question. I'll try and find out. Anyone's help will be appreciated...
Sorry, Roger, I was only offering my opinion. One way to find out would be to email Ostler himself. If you go to the bottom of the first page on his site it has a "contact webmaster". Come to think of it, I should have done that myself when I had earlier questions.
CaliforniaKid wrote:I take it you are suggesting that Joseph's closest companions and participants in the translation process didn't know what he claimed, and so were making stuff up? Yes; we know they made up the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, so why not this, too? I'm sure the scribes were just pursuing their agenda to discredit Joseph in the minds of future generations. Part of the vast left-wing conspiracy, no doubt.
Not at all. Rather, I tend to take a more nuanced view of the various accounts we have of those who spoke of the translation process. It can easily be compared to the extant manuscripts, it can be compared to what was written. I don't take an inerrantist approach to historical accounts. You said Joseph Smith himself made it clear. Actually we have the example of associates discussing something Joseph Smith never publicly outlined. You are playing fast and loose with your statement, and that is what I object to.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
Roger Morrison wrote:I think it imperitive to know HIS answer to that question. I'll try and find out. Anyone's help will be appreciated...
Sorry, Roger, I was only offering my opinion. One way to find out would be to email Ostler himself. If you go to the bottom of the first page on his site it has a "contact webmaster". Come to think of it, I should have done that myself when I had earlier questions.
He's not the fastest responder.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
CaliforniaKid wrote:You said Joseph Smith himself made it clear. Actually we have the example of associates discussing something Joseph Smith never publicly outlined. You are playing fast and loose with your statement, and that is what I object to.
Sorry. Joseph made it clear to his associates. How's that?
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
I'm afraid my outright assumption that historical sources can tell us about the past is one I'm not willing to let go of.
Who said historical sources cannot "tell us about the past"?
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam