Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

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_Ray A

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Ray A »

The closest I could come to anything resembling the Book of Mormon is from this edition of Archaeology, about the Aztecs.

This 17,900-foot volcano, known to the Aztecs as Popocatépetl, or "Smoking Mountain," was a focal point in the sacred geography of ancient Mexico. In the Florentine Codex, Bernardino de Sahagún, a Franciscan friar who documented native customs and beliefs during the decades immediately following the conquest, commented that the mountains of the Sierra Nevada, in particular Popocatépetl and its northern neighbor Iztaccíhuatl, were considered sacred since the rain clouds converged on them. He tells how even toward the end of the sixteenth century pilgrimages were still made to their summits to offer sacrifices to the water deities, but none of the early sources clearly states who the volcano gods were....

Since 1993 we have directed salvage excavations on Popocatépetl's lower flanks, where we have found evidence of the inhabitants' attempts to propitiate the volcano in ways not unlike those recorded by the Spaniards more than 1,500 years later. This fertile region, known as Tetimpa, was first settled by farmers about 700 B.C. Their wattle-and-daub houses, built on low stone platforms placed around a central patio. After at least partially abandonment around 100 B.C., perhaps due to increasing volcanic activity, the area was resettled a few generations later, possibly by descendants of the original inhabitants, since the new houses were built directly over the remains of the old platforms and floors that sealed the graves of their ancestors. At the center of each patio, families built small shrines consisting of mountains modeled from clay, stone, and potsherds crowned with crudely carved heads of humans or serpents. Some are clearly effigies of Popocatépetl. Beneath each carved stone head is a chimney that leads to a charcoal-filled chamber dug in the patio floor. Smoke would have puffed out from under each head in imitation of the ash and vapor plumes expelled from the crater during volcanic activity. ....

About A.D. 80, Popocatépetl erupted, blanketing the landscape with a thick layer of fragmented pumice, or lapilli. When it was over, the villages lay preserved beneath three to seven feet of lapilli. A huge lava flow then descended over the southern part of the area, burying any settlements there under as much as 325 feet of solid rock. Geological studies undertaken as part of our project show that the eruptive column rose to a height of between 15 and 18 miles before it collapsed over the Puebla side of the mountain. Perhaps construction of Cholula's Great Pyramid, which echoes the contours of Popocatépetl and may have started at this time, was at least in part an attempt to appease the mountain. Some believe that the pyramid's Indian name, Tlachihualtepetl ("Man-made Hill"), reflects the imitative effort of those who built it.....The towns on the eastern slopes of the volcano have resumed the prescribed rituals to the best of their ability and renewed the offerings in the caves in an attempt to appease Gregorio. The modeled images of the mountains, once made every year by the Prehispanic communities of the central highlands for the feasts of Tepeilhuitl and Atemoztli, have reappeared in the festivities of the Atlixcáyotl, a regional dance festival held in late September in the city of Atlixco at the foot of Popocatépetl. In 1996, a new dance was choreographed to pacify the angry volcano, and perhaps it should not surprise us that this modern-day ritual included a model "smoking mountain" based on one of the 2,000-year-old shrines we excavated.


From Wiki

The most popular legend about Iztaccíhuatl and Popocatépetl comes from the ancient Náhuas. As it comes from an oral tradition, there are many versions of the same story. There are also poems and songs telling this beautiful story.

Many years before Cortés came to Mexico, the Aztecs lived in Tenochtitlán, today's Mexico City. The chief of the Aztecs was a famous Emperor, who was loved by all the natives. The Emperor and his wife, the Empress, were very worried because they had no children. One day the Empress said to the Emperor that she was going to give birth to a child. A baby girl was born and she was as beautiful as her mother. They called her Iztaccíhuatl, which in Náhuatl means "white lady".

All the natives loved Izta and her parents prepared her to be the Empress of the Aztecs. When she grew up, she fell in love with a captain of a tribe, his name was Popoca. One day, a war broke out and the warriors had to go south to fight the enemy. The Emperor told Popoca that he had to bring the head of the enemy chief back from the war, so he could marry his daughter.

After several months of combat, a warrior who hated Popoca sent a false message to the Emperor. The message said that his army had won the war, but that Popoca had died in battle. The Emperor was very sad when he heard the news, and when Izta heard she could not stop crying. She refused to go out and did not eat any more. A few days later, she became ill and she died of sadness.

When the Emperor was preparing Izta's funeral, Popoca and his warriors arrived victorious from war. The Emperor was taken aback when he saw Popoca, and he told him that other warriors had announced his death. Then, he told him that Izta had died.

Popoca was very sad. He took Izta's body and left the town. He walked a long way until he arrived at some mountains where he ordered his warriors to build a funeral table with flowers and he put Izta lying on top. Then he kneeled down to watch over Izta and died of sadness too.

The Gods were touched by Popoca's sacrifice and turned the tables and the bodies into great volcanoes. The biggest volcano is Popocatépetl, which in Náhuatl means "smoking mountain". He sometimes throws out smoke, showing that he is still watching over Iztaccíhuatl, who sleeps by his side.

Another tale is much like the one before. Some warriors who did not want Popoca to be with Izta, since they liked her themselves, sent a message to the emperor saying that Popoca died. Izta was very sad. She then died of sadness. When Popoca returned he heard about Izta's death. He was also very sad. He went out of town with Izta's body and ordered his soldiers to make a mound for him and Izta. He put Izta's body on one mound and got onto the other with a smoking torch. He stays there forever looking after Izta. Over time dirt, snow, rocks, and Mother Nature covered them turning them into great mountains. Popoca's torch is still smoking as a reminder of what happened.


Image
Popocatépetl at sunrise

Edit: There are some interesting parallels, I have to say, though I'm not prepared to make any definite connections.

From the article in Archaeology:

blanketing the landscape with a thick layer of fragmented pumice...


Wiki:

Most pumice contains tubular microvesicles that can impart a silky or fibrous fabric. The elongation of the microvesicles occurs due to ductile elongation in the volcanic conduit or, in the case of pumiceous lavas, during flow. The other form of vesicles are subspherical to spherical and result from high vapour pressure during eruption.


From 3 Nephi 8, as one example:

20 And it came to pass that there was thick darkness upon all the face of the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof who had not fallen could feel the vapor of darkness;
Last edited by _Ray A on Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Ray A

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Ray A »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I don't think anybody's saying that it left no trace, Ray.

But I've suggested that the evidence may be more difficult to read and, to this point, less thoroughly and completely read, than you seem to be assuming.


I'll concede the point, but only because after my above post, I think I should be a little less skeptical about possibilities.
_Sethbag
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Sethbag »

By the way, Ray, in the book "Justinian's Flea", which I just finished reading this past month, the author points out that not only did the volcanic event in or around 536 AD cause lower temperatures and subsequent crop problems, but it also lowered the temperature enough along some routes traveled by grain caravans that the rat that carries bubonic plague was able to survive the journey from where it originated to the coast of the Mediterranean, and from thence to numerous ports, initiating massive depopulating plague outbreaks throughout the Roman empire (what was left of it), the Sassanid empire, and the other kingdoms and whatnot in Europe.

The author makes that case that had it not been for these repeated massive outbreaks of plague, it's entirely possible that the Muslims wouldn't have had the success they had in the very next century in terms of breaking the Sassanids and the Romans. The world would probably have been completely different even today but for that particular volcanic event.

ps: the author explained that the fleas that carry the plague could only survive in a fairly narrow temperature band, and that before the volcanic eruption, the temperatures along the route of "escape" of the plague were too high, but the temporary drop in temperature due to the eruption allowed the plague to get out and survive long enough to reach the cities where it spread like wildfire.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_harmony
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _harmony »

Ray A wrote:I'm no vulcanologist either, but reading reports like this, complete with Mesoamerican texts describing the effects of the far away volcano, seems to add weight to the idea that if something similar had occurred in Mesoamerica itself, at the time of Christ, we would surely have a record of it.



Science meets myth, whether modern or ancient, it scarsely.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:Science meets myth, whether modern or ancient, it scarsely.

I couldn't agree more.

It scarsely on the drum roll whether up or down, in spades.

*****

I dropped a note on this subject to a geologist colleague (not the one previously referenced), who responded to me this morning as follows:

Dan -- On the question of evidence for a volcanic eruption during the right time period, I would refer you to my colleague at BYU-Idaho, Ben Jordan. Ben looked at ash fall layers in sediment cores, I believe from the Caribbean. He found that there were eruptions during the right time period. Also, with the limited number of archaeological digs that have been excavated in Meso-America, I am aware of several that show evidence of volcanic activity that has interrupted or severly disrupted a group of people. You might look at the following articles:

1. Sheets, P.D., 1983, Archeology and Volcanism in Central America: The Zapotitan Valley of El Salvador: University of Texas Press, Austin. [Sheets initial C-14 dates on the eruption of Ilopango of 14 +/- 50 B.C., 41 +/- 60 B.C. and 75 +/- 215 B.C. All of these dates have errors that would overlap the 3rd Nephi event. This event wiped out the civilization near the volcano and must have had serious effects on those who lived some distance away as well]

2. Dull and Sheets, 2001, Volcanism, ecology and culture: a reassessment of the volcan Ilopango TBJ eruption in the southern Maya realm: Latin American Antiquity, v. 12, p. 25-44. [This is a re-evaluation of the earlier C-14 dates. They place the event at 429 AD with errors of -21 and +107 years (2 sigma). This suggests that the Ilopango eruption is too young for the 3rd Nephi event. However, it does show how a volcano can create havoc on a civilization, essentially depopulating the region for over 100 years]

3. Stanley, Nelson, and Reinhardt, 2000, When Day Turned to Night, in Bawden and Reycraft (editors), Environmental Disaster: and the Archaeology of Human Response: Albuquerque, Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, p. 143-162. [These authors have studied the Tuxtla Mountains region of Veracruz. They document several volcanic eruptions in this region that are dated by C-14 and that disrupted the civilization in this area. At least 4 of the dates overlap 2000 years before the present when their errors are included.]

4. Macias et al., 2000, Late Holocene Pelean-style eruption at Tacana volcano, Mexico and Guatemala: Past, Present, and future hazards: Geological Society of America Bulletin, v. 112, p. 1234-1249. [The authors report on Tacana volcano, which sits on the border between Mexico and Guatemala. Three C-14 ages between AD 25 and AD 72 (1 sigma range of 38 BC to AD 216) documents a an event that caused about a 150 year halt in construction in the area.]

5. The most recent issue of the Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research focuses on "Volcanoes and Human History" (JVGR, v. 176, October 2008, available in electronic format through the BYU library) [This volume includes articles on Costa Rica and Nicaragua, but I have not had a chance to carefully read them yet]

Archaeologists have only just scratched the surface in studying the effects of volcanoes on cultures of Mesoamerica. I am certain that in many cases, layers of volcanic ash have been overlooked or ignored because it was not what the researchers were looking for.

Here's some information on Ben Jordan, at BYU-I:

http://emp.byui.edu/JordanB/
_JustMe
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _JustMe »

*****

I dropped a note on this subject to a geologist colleague (not the one previously referenced), who responded to me this morning as follows:

Dan -- On the question of evidence for a volcanic eruption during the right time period, I would refer you to my colleague at BYU-Idaho, Ben Jordan. Ben looked at ash fall layers in sediment cores, I believe from the Caribbean. He found that there were eruptions during the right time period. Also, with the limited number of archaeological digs that have been excavated in Meso-America, I am aware of several that show evidence of volcanic activity that has interrupted or severly disrupted a group of people. You might look at the following articles:

1. Sheets, P.D., 1983, Archeology and Volcanism in Central America: The Zapotitan Valley of El Salvador: University of Texas Press, Austin. [Sheets initial C-14 dates on the eruption of Ilopango of 14 +/- 50 B.C., 41 +/- 60 B.C. and 75 +/- 215 B.C. All of these dates have errors that would overlap the 3rd Nephi event. This event wiped out the civilization near the volcano and must have had serious effects on those who lived some distance away as well]

2. Dull and Sheets, 2001, Volcanism, ecology and culture: a reassessment of the volcan Ilopango TBJ eruption in the southern Maya realm: Latin American Antiquity, v. 12, p. 25-44. [This is a re-evaluation of the earlier C-14 dates. They place the event at 429 AD with errors of -21 and +107 years (2 sigma). This suggests that the Ilopango eruption is too young for the 3rd Nephi event. However, it does show how a volcano can create havoc on a civilization, essentially depopulating the region for over 100 years]

3. Stanley, Nelson, and Reinhardt, 2000, When Day Turned to Night, in Bawden and Reycraft (editors), Environmental Disaster: and the Archaeology of Human Response: Albuquerque, Maxwell Museum of Anthropology, p. 143-162. [These authors have studied the Tuxtla Mountains region of Veracruz. They document several volcanic eruptions in this region that are dated by C-14 and that disrupted the civilization in this area. At least 4 of the dates overlap 2000 years before the present when their errors are included.]

4. Macias et al., 2000, Late Holocene Pelean-style eruption at Tacana volcano, Mexico and Guatemala: Past, Present, and future hazards: Geological Society of America Bulletin, v. 112, p. 1234-1249. [The authors report on Tacana volcano, which sits on the border between Mexico and Guatemala. Three C-14 ages between AD 25 and AD 72 (1 sigma range of 38 BC to AD 216) documents a an event that caused about a 150 year halt in construction in the area.]

5. The most recent issue of the Journal of Volcanology and Geothermal Research focuses on "Volcanoes and Human History" (JVGR, v. 176, October 2008, available in electronic format through the BYU library) [This volume includes articles on Costa Rica and Nicaragua, but I have not had a chance to carefully read them yet]

Archaeologists have only just scratched the surface in studying the effects of volcanoes on cultures of Mesoamerica. I am certain that in many cases, layers of volcanic ash have been overlooked or ignored because it was not what the researchers were looking for.

Here's some information on Ben Jordan, at BYU-I:

http://emp.byui.edu/JordanB/

Justme says:
Dan, you can't do this please. Citing evidence from the scholars, the actual volcanologists is simply unfair. You need to go with an auto mechanic, a nurse, and um, lets say a truckdriver, yeah! A truckdriver in Ohio. Now that would be proper citing of real sources, not the experts on the exact subject we are trying to figure out. Please keep things clear. All this proves is that you are showing off.
_GoodK

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _GoodK »

JustMe wrote:Dan, you can't do this please. Citing evidence from the scholars, the actual volcanologists is simply unfair. You need to go with an auto mechanic, a nurse, and um, lets say a truckdriver, yeah! A truckdriver in Ohio. Now that would be proper citing of real sources, not the experts on the exact subject we are trying to figure out. Please keep things clear. All this proves is that you are showing off.


You had to gloat... didn't you.

Mind you, DCP just got through saying:

Daniel Peterson wrote:I tend not to close scientific questions. I've read enough of the history of science to make me nervous about assuming that a question has been settled, with nothing left to discover and no surprises permitted.


What's even more puzzling is how evidence of a volcanic eruption - a natural phenomenon - indicates that Jesus Christ came back from the dead and atoned for your sins.

Maybe I should read more.
_beastie
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _beastie »

Kerry -

Do any of these examples entail impact on a 75,000 square mile region?

And do Kerry and DCP both concede that while they may hope for future evidence, the description of the volcano in the Book of Mormon is hardly a dramatic hit in the way apparently depicted on the MAD thread.. particularly since a very similar description was included in Wonders of Nature?

(by the way, which MAD thread is it?)
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Ray A »

GoodK wrote:What's even more puzzling is how evidence of a volcanic eruption - a natural phenomenon - indicates that Jesus Christ came back from the dead and atoned for your sins.

Maybe I should read more.


I think that's a valid point. None of this verifies the historicity of the Book of Mormon, far from it. But what it does has been pointed out by Ben Jordan, the volcanologist Dan contacted, in The Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, "Volcanic Destruction in the Book of Mormon: Possible Evidence from Ice Cores" (I actually did read this years ago but had completely forgotten about it, even when I posted on FAIR):

Conclusion

My purpose in this paper was to lay out the ice-core evidence for a volcanic eruption around the time of Christ's death that might be correlated with the destruction discussed in 3 Nephi. There is evidence for large eruptions, within the margin of error, for the period of AD 30 to 40. However, so far it is not possible to determine the exact geographic location of those eruptions. Despite this, the discovery of a volcanic eruption at Tacan á volcano during the period in question, combined with the ice-core record, seems to strengthen the argument for an eruption as part of the cause of destruction described in 3 Nephi. This evidence is not conclusive and leaves the door open for some criticism of the volcanic hypothesis, but it cannot be argued that there is no evidence outside the Book of Mormon for a volcanic eruption during that time period. The benefit from this study remains: there is evidence for volcanic eruptions during the time period described in 3 Nephi 8. In the end, it is up to the reader to decide how much this evidence strengthens the argument for a volcanic origin of the great destruction.


Having seen evidence closer to the 3 Nephi time period, my previous criticism is now muted. I fully concede that. And while lending some credibility to the previous lacuna, I am still far from persuaded that the Book of Mormon is history. Other anachronisms, which I've pointed out ad nauseam, still remain.

This will probably be my only post today. I'm wasting far too much time on this forum and I think I'm going (eventually) the same way Don Bradley did.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Does evidence for a volcanic eruption prove that Jesus rose from the dead?

No. Of course not.

That is, I have to say, a rather ridiculous question.

Nobody is thinking in such terms. But it's silly to fault a piece of a cumulative case merely because it doesn't establish everything at one fell swoop.
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