Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

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_harmony
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _harmony »

JustMe wrote:I profoundly disagree. I think there is stunning evidence showing the genre of the Book of Mormon fits far stronger in the 600 B.C. setting than the 19th century setting.


What evidence? Where?

Show your cards, JM. You saying it doesn't make it so.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Harmony, I've published hundreds of thousands of words on various relevant topics.

So far as I can tell, you've read few or none of them.

Many of them are on line.
_JustMe
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _JustMe »

Ray A
Tragically, he learns only too late that the "evidence" had misrepresented reality, and that Iago, the "friend" who had simply put the "facts" together and let them speak for themselves, was neither unbiased nor honest. Thus, under certain circumstances it may be rational and entirely right to believe against the seeming "evidence."


This is the FULL context of the Peterson quote, not just your own bolding Ray. With the FULL context, I accept what Peterson says. If evidence is biased and dishonest, then to believe it is utterly stupid. For instance, I just finished reading Michael S. Heiser's Ph.D Dissertation on the Divine Council of the Gods (2004). And I only started it on Monday..... it's that incredibly fascinating. It's 264 pages, with lots and lots of Hebrew and analysis. A simply masterful superb piece of work! Absolutely the finest elaboration and exploration of the Hebrew I have ever seen, bar none.
All the evidence for Mark S. Smith's view has been accepted by pretty much all the other scholars, so that an apparent concensus of scholarship has occurred concerning the evolution of ancient Israel's faith from a Polytheism into an "Intolerant Monotheism," which literally denies that any other gods even exist.
Heiser went against the evidence, did not merely accept it (and it had been analyzed in Hebrew as well) and using computer data bases for both the Hebrew Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls has largely shown that the concensus evidence is wrong. The Council of the Gods did not disappear with monotheism following after it after the Babylonian Exile. Heiser has shown that the bias of scholarship and its assumption (even though arriving at a concensus!) is simply wrong. The actual evidence shows the Council of the Gods, and certainly Divine Plurality of gods continued on into Christianity to 100 C.E. This also shockingly means that the entire substratum of the New Testament is based on the Divine plural beings called "Sons of God." Not angels or mere human judges, but literally what the Hebrew reads and means, GODS. Heiser is electrifyingly powerful on that! He makes the LDS contentions for that view appear weak compared to his analysis in the Hebrew - WHEW! Simply superb work!
Ancient Israel never believed in an "Intolerant Monotheism." That so-called "evidence," and "truth" is nothing of the sort. To accept said "evidence" and "truth" would be wrong. Heiser didn't do so, and we all are better for it. There simply is no monotheism in ancient Israelite religious thinking and world view, and that includes the Deutero-Isaiah passages in Isaiah 40, etc. also. To quote Dr. Peterson - "Thus, under certain circumstances it may be rational and entirely right to believe against the seeming "evidence." I present Heiser's Doctoral Dissertation as absolutely perfect proof of the correctness of Peterson's assertion. You would do well to read Heiser's materials.
Here is his website wherein he has many articles on this. You can also contact him and purchase his Doctoral Dissertation. It is WELL worth the dough! Best money you will spend. I've never read anything quite so thorough or like it for singular attention to detail of evidence, and using Hebrew and Greek to boot. Pure delightful.
http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/
_JustMe
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _JustMe »

Harmony
What evidence? Where?

Show your cards, JM. You saying it doesn't make it so.


For now, this one source alone - John W. Welch, The Legal Cases in the Book of Mormon, BYU University Press, 2008, 496pp....... Read this first, then we can talk.
_harmony
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Harmony, I've published hundreds of thousands of words on various relevant topics.

So far as I can tell, you've read few or none of them.

Many of them are on line.


Relevant topics? Well, that let's out your Islamic writings.

So when have you stepped outside your faith paradigm? Not for anything from FARMS; that would be diametrically oppositional to the prime directive.

So... what? Because I've read your words for years, and I've never seen you even minimally concede any evidence that stacks up against your faith paradigm as legit, let alone actually concede any critic might actually have a point. Mostly you just make fun of people (although you are mellowing).
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_harmony
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _harmony »

JustMe wrote:Harmony
What evidence? Where?

Show your cards, JM. You saying it doesn't make it so.


For now, this one source alone - John W. Welch, The Legal Cases in the Book of Mormon, BYU University Press, 2008, 496pp....... Read this first, then we can talk.


Give me the Cliff Notes version, JM. I'm not blessed with the time you are.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:Relevant topics? Well, that let's out your Islamic writings.

So when have you stepped outside your faith paradigm? Not for anything from FARMS; that would be diametrically oppositional to the prime directive.

So... what? Because I've read your words for years, and I've never seen you even minimally concede any evidence that stacks up against your faith paradigm as legit, let alone actually concede any critic might actually have a point. Mostly you just make fun of people (although you are mellowing).

Harmony, you haven't read what I've published.

I don't even need to ask:

"Mostly you just make fun of people . . . "

If people on message boards don't want me to make fun of them, they shouldn't wear "Kick me" signs.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:Give me the Cliff Notes version, JM. I'm not blessed with the time you are.

You have plenty of time to post, Harmony.






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_Ray A

Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _Ray A »

JustMe wrote:To quote Dr. Peterson - "Thus, under certain circumstances it may be rational and entirely right to believe against the seeming "evidence." I present Heiser's Doctoral Dissertation as absolutely perfect proof of the correctness of Peterson's assertion. You would do well to read Heiser's materials.


I don't disagree, at all, Kerry. But it also has to be taken in this context:

But can faith sometimes actually contradict the available evidence? Certainly it can. And, often, it should. Apart from human questions, concerns, and interpretations, "evidence," as such, does not exist.


That is a faith proposition itself, qualified by this:

This is a truth recognized by most, if not all, serious religious thinkers. "Philosophical theology," says Mortimer Adler, "may carry one's mind to the edge of religious belief, but that is the near edge of a chasm that can only be crossed to the far edge by a leap of faith that transcends reason."


In other words, as a faith proposition, it's okay to believe that full blown Christians who fully understood the atonement of Christ (See David Wright's essays for an understanding of how ancient Israel actually evolved in Messianic beliefs, and other Old Testament scholars) lived in 550 BC.

Remember, this idea "transcends reason", or what we know of the history of the Old Testament from qualified scholars who have spent lifetimes studying it.

I actually don't have a problem with someone believing that, if they can. I find it next to impossible, which is why I don't accept the Book of Mormon as literal history.

I'm nearly out of time for today.

Final edit: Lest I be misread here, I'm not saying we have a perfect knowledge of the past, but some very solid information about ancient Israel has come to us through scholars who specialise in this subject, from all of the available Jewish records ever kept, and even the Old Testament itself is a core source of our understanding, and we don't find it anything like the very Christocentric Book of Mormon, which much more resembles the New Testament.
_harmony
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Re: Volcanoes: Proof of Truth

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
harmony wrote:Give me the Cliff Notes version, JM. I'm not blessed with the time you are.

You have plenty of time to post, Harmony.


Do you really want a laundry list of what I do in between posting, Daniel?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
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