If the Almighty doesn't exist

[_Roger Morrison]

I can't help but, but-in inred...

Marg you said:

I agree with you antishock. What about the argument being made by Prager, that "atheism" or lack of a belief system in the supernatural or absence of religious belief can lead to greater abuse, inhumanity against man than when one has a religious belief system which may have some good moral advice? If people act upon beliefs, and if as you say those who believe in a pacifist religion are likely to tend that way then what about atheists? I think there is little doubt that "people act upon beliefs". I think THE important factor is the attitude of the 'actor' What are they likely to tend towards pacifism or aggression and why? They will tend towards their 'habit' which is generally 'conditioned' by their psyche environment that influences their attitude... I don't know the answer, but throwing out some ideas I'd say a good standard of living by a stable economic environment would be important, opportunities for good quality of life, good education are what enable atheists to live fulfilling lives absent religion. As they 'might' theists as well. Even the availability of those things you mention does not guarantee personal-life-quality. Again I suggest "attitude" bearing heavily upon "inhumanity". Through the ages Monarchy/Aristocracy of every era has had "the best of their time", yet have tended, generally, to not be running-over with compassion. Often while standing as religious pillars of their community. I have and have always had an excellent quality of life, never wanting for anything really and religion is not something I need or miss.Me too. With and without TRADITIONAL Religion. Having seen the movie Religulous today, (I want to see that) Maher made a comment which just came to mind. He said he feels his lack of belief is a luxury. He's got a good life and he doesn't need it. I think that is a good point. I still don't know what the best argument is against those who say atheist lack a belief system and so anything goes. Marg, I don't think there is any argument that will convince religious fundamentalists that nonbelievers/atheists can enjoy fulfilling lives. To do so would call to question their reason for being what THEY are. They don't have the enabling attitude to do that.

Just a thought. I think the atheist factor is the BIG stumbling block in the USA's attitude towards Communism, or Socialism. Which in reality propound the caring-sharing messages of Jesus. Then Americans add lack-of-freedom to their paint-pail. As if there are no legislations dictating USA can't-dos... Of course that's the glue that holds their collapsing house of cards together...

Conclusion: As humanity evolves towards conscious acknowledgement that "God" is a mythical figure/power, and self-governs according to humane ethics, with no thought of heaven or hell, then humanity will be its brother's keeper. Yet to come in America...
Roger thinks...

[_ajax18]

Conclusion: As humanity evolves towards conscious acknowledgement that "God" is a mythical figure/power, and self-governs according to humane ethics, with no thought of heaven or hell, then humanity will be its brother's keeper. Yet to come in America...

What's going to suddenly make people adopt humane ethics?

[_antishock8]

Conclusion: As humanity evolves towards conscious acknowledgement that "God" is a mythical figure/power, and self-governs according to humane ethics, with no thought of heaven or hell, then humanity will be its brother's keeper. Yet to come in America...

What's going to suddenly make people adopt humane ethics?

[_antishock8]

What about the argument being made by Prager, that "atheism" or lack of a belief system in the supernatural or absence of religious belief can lead to greater abuse, inhumanity against man than when one has a religious belief system which may have some good moral advice?

http://www.mantra.com/holocaust/

I think that's an unquantifiable assertion on his part. in my opinion, it's ideology that programs a population to commit mass atrocities against The Other. Some ideologies are political, some are religious, some are ethnic, etc... I have a hard time accepting that a LACK of belief in something has a causative relation to anti-social behavior. It just doesn't make sense to me. "I don't believe in Zeus, therefore I'm going to rape people." Uh, no.

If people act upon beliefs, and if as you say those who believe in a pacifist religion are likely to tend that way then what about atheists?

Well, I think atheists, as demonstrated by some of the political threads here lately find other ideologies to satisfy the inherent need for credulity. As with any group, some atheists are zealots, some are reasonable, some are centrist, etc...

I've seen claims that atheists have lower divorce and crime rates than their theist brothers, but I'm not sure if there's been reliable "scientific" studies done by any universities that have been published in any reputable journals.

I don't know the answer, but throwing out some ideas I'd say a good standard of living by a stable economic environment would be important, opportunities for good quality of life, good education are what enable atheists to live fulfilling lives absent religion. I have and have always had an excellent quality of life, never wanting for anything really and religion is not something I need or miss.

Well, I think that's just a human standard. Everyone wants a stable society with opportunities to buy crap. We're all little pack rats, and it gives a sense of security to have a full belly, and a cable tv.

The problem is atheists are The Other to theists. We're outside of their tribe. We're an easy target to scapegoat and blame because we're different. We don't share the norms and values that make up the basic structure of theistic society where it counts. So, cutting to the chase, there will never be a good reason, a good argumet, a good example, middle ground, nothing that will bridge the gap between theists and atheists... Generally speaking. We're a threat to their existential reality, and that's too sobering to actually accept on any level. We reject their reason for existing, and that's deeply offensive.


(o)(o) (o)(o) (o)(o) (o)(o) (o)(o) (o)(o) (o)(o) (o)(o) (o)(o) (o)(o)

[_Roger Morrison]

Conclusion: As humanity evolves towards conscious acknowledgement that "God" is a mythical figure/power, and self-governs according to humane ethics, with no thought of heaven or hell, then humanity will be its brother's keeper. Yet to come in America...

What's going to suddenly make people adopt humane ethics?

"Suddenly" is to expect a miracle which is seldom in an evolving process. From Kitty Hawk to Jets & Rockets took intelligence & well placed Faith in human ability, and in science. Quite probably there were both theists AND atheists contributing to the project who were able to set aside religious irrelevance and get on with-it.

Not "suddenly" but gradually awareness beyond the tribe--increasing through cybernetics--that makes denial of reality difficult, except for psychicly impaired. To witness human disparity of such extremes as has been part-&-parcel of Heaven&Hell Judeo-Christian dynamics is motivating the thinking-&-feeling of both theists AND atheists to question, and change, the past practices of human-relations.

As long as there are Sacred Cows roaming streets, and Holy Men who claim favoured relationships with "God"--we have a long way to go to. But IMSCO we are closer than ever before.

Whether/when Marx's prophecy materializes, depends upon how soon the upper strata of governance and influence admit to their crimes. Or, how long it takes for the duped to awaken and demand redress and reorganization according to principles of fairness and the resultant justice that assures a equitable distribution of this worlds resources--HERE!

This is the World created by Powers we are just beginning to understand and appreciate. Heaven & Hell were created by Man, who in superstition created their own worlds outside of reality to fill their ignorance void.

That those superstitions are maintained holusbolus in today's world is somewhat of a measure of how long it will take before the hungry are feed, the naked clothed and the ignorant are schooled...

... thinks Roger