The Mormon Gulag

[_GoodK]

While most might see the above as degrading or dehumanizing, it can be interpreted as tethering a child in order to ensure their supervision.

I'm sure it can.

[_Dr. Shades]

Forgive me if you've already gone over this, but from what you know of people who exited or otherwise "graduated" from the place, were their lives at all different after-the-fact? What percentage became the faithful Mormons that their parents wanted them to become, what percentage went back to their old ways, what percentage became something totally different from what they were or faithful Mormons, etc.?

Also, do you know of anyone who later admitted something like, "Yeah, this place sucks, but I was such a (fill-in-the-blank) that this was just what I needed, and I'm glad my parents sent me here"?

(That last question was inspired by the testimonials on the place's official page, since they seem so unbelievable in light of what you've told us so far.)

[_GoodK]

Forgive me if you've already gone over this, but from what you know of people who exited or otherwise "graduated" from the place, were their lives at all different after-the-fact?

These are all good questions, Dr. Shades. It's fair to say that all of our lives were drastically different after-the-fact. The thing is, if a kid was let out before he was 18 he still wasn't home free. He could be sent back at a moments notice, and he knows this.

What percentage became the faithful Mormons that their parents wanted them to become, what percentage went back to their old ways, what percentage became something totally different from what they were or faithful Mormons, etc.?

Well, if I haven't said so already, the brainwashing there works. Even I eventually started to believe that the Mormon church was true around year 2. A lot of my friends from there served missions after getting out. Maybe a quarter of them were "faithful", although none of them are TBM's as we know them. We all have lots of beer when I'm in town. They just don't openly hate the church, like many end up doing.

Also, do you know of anyone who later admitted something like, "Yeah, this place sucks, but I was such a (fill-in-the-blank) that this was just what I needed, and I'm glad my parents sent me here"?

Anyone that I have ever known from the Boys Ranch would have rather been in county jail than there. Seriously. I don't know one single person who would say that they are glad they went there, or it is what they needed, etc. My biggest problem has been people just want to leave that part of their lives in the past and don't really want to bring it all up again for my project.

Now, were there positive things about that place? Sure. For instance, I met some of the best friends I could ever ask for in that place. It toughened me up quite a bit. I learned how to be comfortable all alone. I read a lot. But for that small list of optimism, there are hundreds more reasons to regret ever hearing about that place.


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[_marg]

Eric,

Have you read information on thought reform techniques? As an example from the Net this one http://www.thestraights.com/essays/beyerstein_report_on_straight.htm

I think I'm beginning to understand better why your dad sent you there. It wasn't because you were a trouble-maker sort of kid. Someone who smokes some marihuana doesn't need 2 years of reform school and even your dad knows that, or someone who is sexually active doesn't need 2 years. And you obviously were a good capable student, very intelligent. The big issue with you is that you rejected the Church. The goal of that program and the excessive abuse was to break your will and get you to incorporate into your core beliefs Mormonism. And as far as the abuse goes, for the program abusers, you say about 20 out of 100 used extreme tactics, the ends justify the means. The other 80 were probably aware to some extent but they too could justify it as the ends justifying the means. Unfortunately because your dad could afford to pay the money, there was no incentive for that school to ever let you leave earlier than legally required. And your dad would have appreciated as well, that a short time is not likely to break your will down.

Apparently there are quite a few tough love residential programs with little professional and legal oversight. In California a bill I believe was passed on these facilities. http://www.apa.org/ppo/pi/billforteens0608.html

[_harmony]

Apparently there are quite a few tough love residential programs with little professional and legal oversight. In California a bill I believe was passed on these facilities. http://www.apa.org/ppo/pi/billforteens0608.html

I thought tough love programs were reserved for children of the rich whose parents considered them the worst of the worst--hard core druggies, thieves, etc. and in order to keep them out of court, they send them to these sorts of facilities? (children of poor parents who are the worst of the worst are confined to juvenile hall or prison when tried as adults and the bill is given to the tax payers). But for almost 3 years???

[_wenglund]

This thread has made for an interesting read.

And, if GoodK and others are serious about resolving this issue, then it would be good to know that there are productive problem resolution strategies and counterproductive strategies. I mention this because the later seems to have prevailed in this thread.

Here is a brief list of productive steps:

1. Clearly and specifically define the problem (who exactly is doing what to whom and how and where and when).
2. Make a best-effort attempt to assemble documentation for the specifics listed above.
3. Formulate viable and specific solutions for the specific problems, including mapping out clearly derfined strategies and objectives for implementing the solutions.
4. Write this all up in a reasoned and dispassionate report, and present it to the appropriate authorities--i.e. those who have legal and administrative oversight responsibilities as well as those who are in a position to affect change.
5. Continue to monitoring and conjolling the process along to resolution, and make whatever adaptive changes that will best assure success.

What I have found here on this thread have been vauge and sweeping accusations (indiscriminate mud-slinging), emoting, name-calling, rumors and innuendo, dismissiveness towards those who may question or have varied views, equally vague and sweeping solutions (close the place down?), ineffectual resolution tactics (protests? anti-website?), and this all voiced among people here who are far removed from the situation, are relatively ignorant of all sides of the matter, and have little or no influence to affect positive change.

Unfortunately, such may have only served to de-crediblize the effort.

However, there have been some blue sky amidst the dark clouds, not the least of which has been the investigate questions that several have asked and the professionals here mentioning governmental agencies that would be wise to involve.

For what it is worth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_harmony]

This thread has made for an interesting read.

And, if GoodK and others are serious about resolving this issue, then it would be good to know that there are productive problem resolution strategies and counterproductive strategies. I mention this because the later seems to have prevailed in this thread.

Here is a brief list of productive steps:

1. Clearly and specifically define the problem (who exactly is doing what to whom and how and where and when).
2. Make a best-effort attempt to assemble documentation for the specifics listed above.
3. Formulate viable and specific solutions for the specific problems, including mapping out clearly derfined strategies and objectives for implementing the solutions.
4. Write this all up in a reasoned and dispassionate report, and present it to the appropriate authorities--i.e. those who have legal and administrative oversight responsibilities as well as those who are in a position to affect change.
5. Continue to monitoring and conjolling the process along to resolution, and make whatever adaptive changes that will best assure success.

What makes you think that's not what GoodK is doing?

What I have found here on this thread have been vauge and sweeping accusations (indiscriminate mud-slinging), emoting, name-calling, rumors and innuendo, dismissiveness towards those who may question or have varied views, equally vague and sweeping solutions (close the place down?), ineffectual resolution tactics (protests? anti-website?), and this all voiced among people here who are far removed from the situation, are relatively ignorant of all sides of the matter, and have little or no influence to affect positive change.

Still seeing through a glass darkly, are you, Wade?

Unfortunately, such may have only served to de-crediblize the effort.

Well, you'd know about that, wouldn't you?

However, there have been some blue sky amidst the dark clouds, not the least of which has been the investigate questions that several have asked and the professionals here mentioning governmental agencies that would be wise to involve.

You mean some of us actually have a handle on this?

For what it is worth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Exactly.

[_Ray A]

Anyone that I have ever known from the Boys Ranch would have rather been in county jail than there. Seriously. I don't know one single person who would say that they are glad they went there, or it is what they needed, etc. My biggest problem has been people just want to leave that part of their lives in the past and don't really want to bring it all up again for my project.

Now, were there positive things about that place? Sure. For instance, I met some of the best friends I could ever ask for in that place. It toughened me up quite a bit. I learned how to be comfortable all alone. I read a lot. But for that small list of optimism, there are hundreds more reasons to regret ever hearing about that place.

GoodK, I'm trying to be fair to you and your feelings, and you obviously had a very bad experience at the UBR, but I've searched the Net in vain looking for any similar reports/claims about the UBR. I know a Net search isn't the ideal way of going about this, but I would think that someone, somewhere, who experienced similar treatment would surely have spoken out by now?

I hadn't mentioned before that in 1980 I worked in a juvenile detention centre for several months. These kids were not angels, and some had been involved in major crimes. I think earlier prevention strategies might have stopped many of them going that far, but I think it's also walking a tightrope trying to decide who should go there.

From what I've read of the UBR over the past couple of days (and I've done a lot of searching), the positive stories dominate. In fact, as I said, I'm having difficulty coming across any negative ones, apart from the ones I've read on your site. That is not to downplay the bad experiences of those who have had them, but I think Wade is right on one point - you're going to have to get some serious documentation and more stories if anything is to be accomplished, as far as your aim is concerned.

[_Ray A]

Abuse at the Arizona Boys Ranch, 1998. (Los Angeles Times)

Employees at the paramilitary-style camp, where hundreds of California youth offenders are sent, had already tried to deal with Nick's incontinence by making him sleep in soiled underwear, ordering him to drop his pants so that other boys could inspect them, requiring he finish whatever physical activity he was engaged in before using the restroom, making him eat dinner while sitting on the toilet and, near the end of his life, making him carry a yellow trash basket filled with his soiled clothes and his own vomit.

At times he was instructed to do push-ups that lowered his face into the foul-smelling basket.

On the day before he died, Nick collapsed several times during physical training. After he fell while running up a hill, staff bundled him into a wheelbarrow and made another boy push him around the camp. Nick was told to make the sound of an ambulance siren.

[_wenglund]

What makes you think that's not what GoodK is doing?

It is certainly not the approach he and others have taken here or on the linked website--which is all that I intended to speak to.

As for the rest of your snarl, I will ignore it for want of edification. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-