SatanWasSetUp wrote:My observations is members themselves have this unwritten doctrine that paying tithing and being righteous leads to prosperity. It might have been preached from the pulpit at times, but I think it's more a cultural phenomenon in the church than a church guided doctrine. It's a real problem in the church, and this is why the leaders have been preaching stay out of debt for years and years now. I'm sure some of the finance gurus who are in leadership positions saw this fiasco coming a mile away. A bishop in our ward back in 2004 gave a talk in sacrament about finances and said he was very, very concerned about the ARMs and expensive mortgages and home equity loans that people were getting involved in. So the leaders have been giving out good practical financial advice. The problem is they are not repudiating the widespread belief that righteousness and tithe paying leads to prosperity. It doesn't matter how much tithing you pay, you cannot pay a $3500 mortgage on a $3400 monthly income. I know many TBMs here have claimed that when you pay tithing, money magically appears, and we've all heard those stories over the pulpit, but it is just not true. The leaders need to keep preaching stay out of debt, and they need to also repudiate these tithing urban legends. Money is not magic, and magically make believe money is what has led to this financial crises.
I don't see the tithing making you extra money lessons. I do hear that tithing gives blessings but when someone does explain it they usually make it clear that these are not necessarily financial blessings. I have had my money troubles work out unexpectedly. I don't expect it (or get it) after I spend all my money in riotous living.
A few months back our Bishop gave us a lesson on credit cards, student loans, etc. In an college ward I see people who have already mortgaged their entire future. Know a guy who has 100k in student loans and graduated....with a Philosophy degree. I do not envy him his future. I think when LDS screw up it is in spite of not because of the Church.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Dude wrote:I sure hope it takes at least a year or two to settle the housing bust, because that's about my timeline for getting out of Manhattan and scooping up a fine place in the suburbs. I have excellent credit and I don't want to miss the good deals. Who knows, Seth -- you and I could be neighbors out in Arizona! Some dry heat would be sweeet.
Do you golf? ;-)
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
I golfed once as a kid at that place near the mouth of Provo canyon, and I hated it, but I bet it could be fun with a cooler of beer.
Yeah, there's a 9 hole course there that I golfed at several times like 15 years ago with my brother. It was fun. I kid you not that there are probably 150+ golf courses within a 100 mile radius from my house.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Jason Bourne wrote:Except you leave out the fact that LDS leaders constantly warn about going into debt and urge members to get out of debt. LDS are counseled to be prudent and careful and to live withing their means. Many ignore it but they are still counseled as such.
This is very true, Jason. A LOT of people could probably make their house payment if they didn't have the boat, RV, nice car, 4 credit cards, etc.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
In my ward we have had several young couple view their earning potential as increasingly growing, so they moved to huge houses with very large mortgages. Hope that won't bite them in the butt.
Televangelists and other charlatans may be encouraging people to get into debt for God, but that is not an accusation that one could make against the LDS.
There are frequent warnings against debt, and advice to own (i.e. clear the mortgage ASAP) ones own home. I always understood clear home ownership and two years of food storage to be required to get through the 'last days'.
Mormon debt is a cultural thing though - the assumption is that God blesses righteousness with prosperity. With appearance of righteouness being so important, debt is used to finance symbols of prosperity/symbols of righteous living. But there is a contrary message coming from the pulpit to avoid debt.
Here downunder we have a much weaker cultural association between prosperity and God, in most areas it would be a non-issue. Which makes the God/Wealth attitude standout somewhat when visiting the Mormon enclave at Temple View in Hamilton.
Having just read the Book of Mormon again (finished last week, yay!) a clear message I got was that naughtyness is followed by famine, poverty and strife, and righteouness is followed by riches and wealth (which leads to a cycle involving pride etc - one day I will graph the fortunes of the Nephites, they seemed to cycle between wealth and famine in less than 10 years).
I don't blame tithing for making people poor - It is what you do with the rest of the $$ that matters. Fritterers will fritter regardless of income. I do resent the $$ that my parents give to the church - over the years they have tithed enough to buy a house or two freehold. But would they have done so it they didn't pay tithing? No way.
Danna wrote:I don't blame tithing for making people poor - It is what you do with the rest of the $$ that matters. Fritterers will fritter regardless of income. I do resent the $$ that my parents give to the church - over the years they have tithed enough to buy a house or two freehold. But would they have done so it they didn't pay tithing? No way.
I agree with this. If Pres Monson were to come out tomorrow and say tithing was no longer required, I'm betting a HUGE number of LDS would be at their local Best Buy getting the new 64" plasma with their extra 10%.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
The Dude wrote:I sure hope it takes at least a year or two to settle the housing bust, because that's about my timeline for getting out of Manhattan and scooping up a fine place in the suburbs. I have excellent credit and I don't want to miss the good deals. Who knows, Seth -- you and I could be neighbors out in Arizona! Some dry heat would be sweeet. In the meantime, I'm glad I don't have a vehicle to worry about filling up with gas. God doesn't have to look out for me because I'm looking out for myself.
Oh, I see. The Dude had to move as far away from me as possible. I can't figure out any other reason he'd want to get out of Seattle.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO