The Mormon Gulag

[_Jason Bourne]

I just wish the church would pull its missionaries out of there. It would make it look a whole let less involved.

Sorry. Must have missed that. It does change the picture.

[_Jason Bourne]

http://www.mormongulag.com/

So the Church supports this? Unofficially, perhaps?

Some more information is supplied in This Link.

Ray

Your link provides a much different picture.

[_Jason Bourne]

So when you have a church that teaches against , coffee and tea because of the drugs in them, is it any wonder that this sort of fanatically religious parent would basically go beserk over finding their teen trying some marihuana. And I can see why a teen would rebel against this parent who obviously is not quite dealing from a full deck when he is so positive he's right and he knows without any doubt what God wants.

Marg

can you please provide empirical evidence the LDS Church isat the root cause of a handful of parents making bad parenting decisions? Just because a relative few choose to interpret the teachings in such a way in now way proves they are ridiculous nor at the cause of the decisions of these parents.

[_Droopy]

Droopy wrote:
more drunken rambling


It's best to ignore those who are merely whoring for attention.

Still waiting for a moderator to move Loran/Droopy/Coggins/Shirley Phelp's message board drunk dialing(and flagrant attempt to derail) to a more appropriate forum so I can respond to him in the manner in which he or she deserves.

There's nothing to derail in a patently contrived argument such as this. The entire thread is, in and of itself, a derailment, and you're the conductor on the exmo Chattenooga Choo Choo Superchief that's gone of the rails without any brakes.

Now, again: Where did you get the quote you have erroneously attributed to me, and who is Shirley Phelps?

[_Ray A]

http://www.mormongulag.com/

So the Church supports this? Unofficially, perhaps?

Some more information is supplied in This Link.

Ray

Your link provides a much different picture.

I don't doubt that the UBR has helped many, perhaps thousands, Jason, and for this reason, although I'm supportive of GoodK in exposing abuse, I'm uncertain trying to close down UBR is the best idea. Certainly, exposure and reform will be very important, and I'm supportive to that extent. I have seen too much of these appealing facades in similar Catholic institutions which were indifferent to abuse going on within the walls of benign-looking institutions.

Part of my bias (for reform rather than closure, pending what I'm yet to learn from GoodK) is that I see a society filled with youth males totally out of control because of softly-softly approaches, too much "sensitivity training", and an inordinate focus on "rights" at the expense of responsibility. No "corrective institution" will be a totally sweet experience for those who have to go through it, and many loathe it at first, and for some the loathing becomes permanent. These are also breeding gounds for authority abusers, and in some cases sexual predators. When someone is under a person's control, the temptation to cross the line becomes great, very great, and perhaps we can apply the D&C 121 principle here, that when given authority "most men" will abuse it, "we have learned by sad experience".

In GoodK's case, we may be putting the cart before the horse in regard to his negative views of Mormonism. It's seems obvious to me that those views were heavily shaped by his experience at UBR. So should we expect a modern day Solzhenitsen to speak in favour of "gulags"? Those who expect no negativity, even religious negativity, from GoodK are not being realistic (not suggesting you are). In fact, given his experiences, I'm surprised that he's expressed anything positive, which he has at times.

Some of the Mormons posting on this thread are only going to inflame him even more. If their attitudes are anything like what GoodK is describing what goes on at UBR, and if some of them were authorities at UBR, then I think they are only boosting the very points GoodK is making. We don't need any of Job's self-righteous "miserable comforters" at this time, because they haven't experienced it.

[_Danna]

Thanks for the information GoodK.

There is not a lot of information from previous residents of the Utah boys ranch on the web - and it seems to be mixed - some credit the place with changing their lives, others seem to think it really screwed them up.

If this sort of thing had been an option for my parents, I may have been sent there after I started asking questions and got too stroppy.

It will be interesting to see how your website develops. I found a few links that may be interesting anyway, if you haven't seen them.

A kids BB discussing 'boarding school'

Wow i have expierenced stuff like that first hand. My parents sent me to a boarding school called the utah boys ranch in west jordan utah. the staff basically got off on making us suffer and kids would try and run all the time. Staff would beat the crap out of kids and they would read all our mail and if we tried to snitch on them to our parents they would put us on "Work crew " which was basically like do push ups all day and stand at attention. But after we got out several kids made websites about the place. the complaints were so bad that they changed there name to west ridge accademy. When i was there my roomate hung himself in our room with a belt and the ranch covered it up saying that he was trying to pass himself out to get a natural "High" because he was such an addict he just couldn't stop. I thought for sure after that the ranch would be shut down but his parents believed them and thanked the ranch for trying to help there son.

http://www.retrojunk.com/forums/index.p ... 084&page=2

Court news article

West Ridge Academy fka Utah Boys Ranch placed a new resident under the supervision of an older boy who sexually molested him, and others, though the Academy knew the older boy had done it before, one alleged victim says in a $10 million claim in Salt Lake County Court.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2008/04/2 ... laints.htm
This may or may not be related:
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court- ... _id-66003/

This was an odd little blog:

When I was in high school I went to a place called The Utah Boys Ranch. For the first two weeks the only thing I had permission to do was breathe and blink. I stood at attention all day long unless ordered to do something else, like stand at ease or move rocks, or pretend there is a chair next to the wall and sit on it. I know the staff members were not pointing a gun at my face. If I were to scratch my nose with out asking permission I would run a couple of ladders or do twenty pushups or whatever. My life was never on the line. All the same, I was doing things I did not want to do whether I liked it or not. Last Friday morning was not the first time my actions were fully dictated by somebody besides myself. I think that was why it didn’t really bug me as much as many people think it should have. Funny though, I never thought that any of the life training I got in the Boys Ranch would prepare me to handle an armed robbery.

http://idiotbook.blogspot.com/2008/03/i ... 6381120000

(I think it is interesting because I recently was looking into research on 'innoculation' against Critical Incident Stress for police officers - what this blogger describes is in line with theories of innoculation for prisoners of war and hostages.)

Anyway, very interesting!

[_marg]

So when you have a church that teaches against , coffee and tea because of the drugs in them, is it any wonder that this sort of fanatically religious parent would basically go beserk over finding their teen trying some marihuana. And I can see why a teen would rebel against this parent who obviously is not quite dealing from a full deck when he is so positive he's right and he knows without any doubt what God wants.

Marg

can you please provide empirical evidence the LDS Church isat the root cause of a handful of parents making bad parenting decisions? Just because a relative few choose to interpret the teachings in such a way in now way proves they are ridiculous nor at the cause of the decisions of these parents.

Jason, didn't you send your son away to some sort of camp or military training because he was rebellious towards you, or you made him leave home early? I seem to remember you mentioning you had problems with a son of yours. Isn't it possible that Mormon parents on average are more controlling than parents not involved with a fundamentalist type religion and that this controlling and being strict with kids, stems from what is learned via the Church and how it controlls its members?

It wouldn't surprise me that if the students were questioned at this Utah Boys Ranch a large percentage of them would be agnostic/atheist (hence they'd be considered rebellious against their religious... mainly Mormon parents) and likely a large percentage of their parents very religious hence the reason they choose Westridge because it promotes/forces Mormonism upon the students. Yet it also wouldn't surprise me that a high percentage of the teens that end up in there are not all that atypical of rebellious teens in general, that they aren't really bad kids but rather questioning independent thinkers who are mainly acting out rebelling via drugs, alcohol, verbally against their over controlling parents. It just wouldn't surprise me Jason. I have 2 adult children, 25 and 27 years old. Neither one have ever gone through a rebellious stage at all, not in the slightest ever, towards anyone, me, teachers, any authority etc. One of the reasons is I never tried to control my kids, instead I tried to teach them to think for themselves, and question. Mormonism expects compliance and acceptance of its authority. And it's likely the same strategies the church uses of expecting unquestioning obedience to authority, that parents employ similar strategies with their kids.. I don't have perfect kids by the way, I don't expect them to be. But I don't have rebellious kids.

I'm not saying that the "root cause" your words of the abuse at this place (if they are true) is the fault of the church. Lots of factors would be involved, but I don't think Mormonism as an ideology which people act upon can be discounted. But it is most likely a factor to some extent. However in similar organizations for teen rehabilitation which use abusive behavior modification techniques, and religion is not involved as part of the program then obviously other factors are at play.

[_Jason Bourne]

Marg

I am not sure you answered my question but I will respond below.

Jason, didn't you send your son away to some sort of camp or military training because he was rebellious towards you? or he left home early. I seem to remember you mentioning you had problems with a son of yours.

No I did not send my son to a camp at all. My son had issues with drugs and alcohol from about 15 on. I worked with him carefully. We had ups and downs. I wanted him to participate in church. He would some and some he did not. We worked some negotiations there. He also became sexually active at 17. He was surprisingly open about much of this but not all. I was not happy about this but let him know while I did not approve I still loved him and my love was not conditional. But my son was an angry young man as well and was hostile when I expected some accountabilty like don't do drugs or booze at my home or around your little sister or you need to let me know where you are and not be gone for days at at time and when I ask you these things don't tell me to F... off.

My son always wanted to be a Marine at least from 15 on. But I wanted him to try college. I pressured him some on that and he went a semester then dropped out. He was living at home and was 18 now. He had a 16 hour a week pizza delivery job and all he did was party and be gong for days at at time. My approach to my kids has always been that they could live at my home for free as long as they like and as long as they were pursuing something worth while-an education, a decent job or career, saving for a mission if they want to go and so on. But if they were doing nothing which is what my son was doing then they had to move one.

So my son decided to try the Air Force. But because of a small medical issue he was rejected. He went nuts for some reason. Was very angry and for months he was out partying and never home. I tried to work with him but he would not respond. So I finally made him move out. I gave him 30 days to find a place and told him I would pay one month rent and buy one month of groceries then he was on his own. But he ended up asking his older married sister if he could move in with her which I thought was a good idea and it was. He moved in with her and her husband got a job, worked for 6 months, quit the drugs and then decided to join the Marines. He is doing very well now and is a Sargent and just reenlisted for another 4 years. He says now my making him move out was the best thing I could do for him. He is not religious nor does he have to be in my book if he chooses not to be.

Isn't it possible that Mormon parents on average are more controlling than parents not involved with a fundamentalist type religion and that this controlling stems from what is learned via the Church?

Some are and some are not just like some atheist parents are more controlling and some are not. I think it runs across the board.

It wouldn't surprise me that if the students were questioned at this Utah Boys Ranch a large percentage of them would be agnostic/atheist (hence they's be considered rebellious against their religious mainly Mormon parents and a large percentage of their parents likely are very religious hence the reason these choose Westridge because it promotes Mormonism.

It would surprise me. My guess it that while many my not want to practice Mormonism most still have some belief. But neither of us really know unless we ask them.

Yet it also wouldn't surprise me that a high percentage of the teens that end up there are not all that atypical of rebellious teens in general, but that they were mainly rebelling agains their parents who were forcing their own religous beliefs onto them. It just wouldn't surprise me Jason.

Well that is nice. You may be right or may not be. You have no evidence. I would not be surprised that many are probably far beyond normal rebellion. In my experience I have never seen any LDS parent I know send any kid to a place like this and I know many who have kids that are normally rebellious and some beyond that. Almost all active LDS parents work through these things just like any other parent and do it best they can.

I have 2 adult children, 25 and 27 years old. Neither one have ever gone through a rebellious stage at all, ever, towards anyone, me, teachers etc. One of the reasons is I never tried to control my kids, instead I tried to teach them to be self responsible, think for themselves, and question.

\

Well bully for you. I have four 26, 24, 22 and 13. My son is 22. The other three are girls.The oldest never rebelled at all. The next one never rebelled either but when she was 22 she met a guy and then decided to move in with him. He is a Mormon guy.They are now married and both active LDS. All this on their own choice.

Time will tell what the 13 year old will do.

by the way most LDS parent even with their brainwashing ridiculous religion teach their kids to be self responsible and think for themselves. Least the ones I know. I did and still do. Often when my kids challenged things I believed I would say well here is what I believe you should do and here is why now you go figure it out for you, ponder, pray if you want and whatever you decide is ok with me.

Mormonism expects compliance and acceptance of its authority. And it's likely the same strategies the church uses expecting unquestioning obedience to authority, parents end up employing with their kids.

Well since you are not Mormon and likely do not spend much time in Mormon homes I think we can dismiss your summation. Mormons believe in agency and choice and free will and it is essential to our system of belief. Most LDS parents I know my attempt to teach and indoctrinate as their kids grow but few expect unquestioning obedience to thier authority. And if you spent any time reading LDS leaders advice about how to teach and raise kids you would see that you idea is way way off. So unless you can come up with some evidence of your conclusion I think we can set it aside.

But I'm not saying that the root cause of the extremes of abuse at this place (if they are true) is the fault of the church. Lots of factors would be involved, but I don't think Mormonism as an ideology which people act upon can be discounted. But it is most likely a factor to some extent. However in similar organization for teen rehabilitation which use abusive behavior modification techniques, religion may not even be a factor at all.

\
Certainly religious beliefs are going to play into it some but it is not cut and dry at all.

[_GoodK]

I don't think being sent to the ranch/gulag had anything to do with my parents being Mormon -- besides the fact that the ranch clearly panders to wealthy Mormon families.

I know more good Mormon parents than bad ones, and not all of them would want to ship their boys off or have them brutally indoctrinated for years.

I still have faith that the Church will formally renounce this place and cut all ties.

[_GoodK]

There's nothing to derail in a patently contrived argument such as this. The entire thread is, in and of itself, a derailment, and you're the conductor on the exmo Chattenooga Choo Choo Superchief that's gone of the rails without any brakes.

Now, again: Where did you get the quote you have erroneously attributed to me, and who is Shirley Phelps?

I refuse to entertain your nonsense in this thread. This is nothing more than antagonistic drunk-posting, and I care too much about this to endulge in something even as fun as our little exchanges are.

You neglected my PM yesterday. Clearly you only care to derail this thread.