Brethren gathering BYU force to help with Prop 8 ...

[_Dr. Shades]

As I understand it, I'm a homophobe and a bigot becaues I intend to support God's position.

What makes you think that your position is God's position?

[_asbestosman]

As I understand it, I'm a homophobe and a bigot becaues I intend to support God's position.

What makes you think that your position is God's position?

Arrogance, ignorance, or faith. Take your pick.
(By the way, I did not say my position was God's position, but rathe that I intend to support God's position).

[_Gadianton]

I'm more worried about God's label for me

And Ron Lafferty isn't concerned about anyone's labels for him either.

[_asbestosman]

And Ron Lafferty isn't concerned about anyone's labels for him either.

I wouldn't feel any safer even if he were.

[_Dr. Shades]

(By the way, I did not say my position was God's position, but rathe that I intend to support God's position).

What makes you think you know what God's position is any better than the other 99.9% of the population does?

You see, THIS is why the separation between church and state is so very, very important.

[_harmony]

I need to get my eyes checked. I thought A-man said he supported Gad's position.

It's really confusing when you see an a instead of an o.

[_asbestosman]

You see, THIS is why the separation between church and state is so very, very important.

Of course. Then Secular Humanists win by way of forced forfeit.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I have contributed financially to the cause.

Quite handsomely, too, per CA public records.

One wonders why Rollo loves to tout public issues in a seemingly belittling way.[/quote]
I was simply registering my surprise that an apparently intelligent person like rcrocket would give so much money to such a wrong cause.

Are you envious the Bob has the cash to donate to a something he believes in even if you don't.

Probably.

One can oppose marriage for gays without being a homophobe.

Not that I've seen. Of all the reasons to support a ban on gay marriage, each has stemmed from homophobia, in my opinion.

They may be fine with gays as people, even have gay friends but see compelling reasons for leaving marriage between a man a woman that have nothing to do with hate, bigotry or prejudice.

BS. The same reasoning could be used to support a ban on interracial marriage.

Are you teenagerphobe because you might place limits on a 13 year olds ability to marry?

No, but I see good reasons for that, but when it comes to consenting adults I see no difference between a ban on interracial marriage and gay marriage.

Those who call people that have valid reasons that are not rooted in bigotry to oppose this homophobes are as much a a phobe towards those who disagree with them as thay accuse the other of.

I honestly have not seen one good reason to ban gay marriage.

[_Ray A]

I received an email this morning from a long-time (TBM) LDS friend, encouraging all of us to support Prop 8 (I can't, since I don't live or vote in America, and would not support it anyway). I'm obviously not going to post the email, but it was a clarion call to "save our society", ignore the "politically correct crap", and "protect our government from further corruption". "Our kids deserve it."

This was my reply:

I don't believe this will impact on society as badly as the Church leaders say. Gay marriage is already legal in Canada, and gay civil unions have been legal in Australia for many years. It hasn't changed our society. The breakdown of heterosexual marriages has done far more harm, and gay people haven't caused that.
Gay people make up a very small minority, about 10% of the population, at the most. In other words, they are a small minority like Mormons once were. Polygamy did far more harm to society than gay marriage ever could, and polygamy continues to do excessive harm in America today. Yet the Church leaders aren't doing much to stop that! Are they asking members to sign petitions to ban polygamy? The most the Church does is try to distinguish itself from polygamous groups, but it seldom if ever condemns or challenges the legality of polygamy. I trust you are aware of the gross abuses that have been, and are being committed today by polygamous groups in America. We don't have that problem in Australia - at all! Polygamy in America is the legacy left by 19th century Mormonism.

The world isn't going to end if gay marriage becomes legal in California, or America for that matter. I have many gay friends, and they are as harmless as doves, and less prone to violence than heterosexuals. I know, to us heteros it seems "abnormal", but such relationships are not just about sex, contrary to the popular imagination. We have a High Court judge, Justice Michael Kirby, who has lived in a gay relationship with his partner for over 30 years. Yes, you read that right, a High Court judge. http://www.hcourt.gov.au/speeches/kirbyj/kirbyjbio.html Read his bio, and you tell me how you think people like this are a "threat" to our society. There are prominent gay people who make a solid contribution to Australian society.

I'm afraid I think the Church is just trying to follow what they see as "scriptural mandates" here. Unfortunately, the once persecuted minority, have now become the persecutors. So I respectfully disagree with you, and the Church, on this subject. If you don't have any gay friends, maybe you should make some. Then you will see the real human side of them, that they are just as loving and caring as you are. If you prick them with a needle, they will bleed. If you insult them, they will be emotionally hurt. They really are ordinary human beings like you and me, who want to love and be loved. There is no agenda to take over society, or the world, only to be treated equally.

With love to you and your family,

Ray.

[_Sethbag]

I bet that flew like a lead balloon, Ray. Unfortunately there's literally nothing that can be said to change or influence the mind of someone who is willing to believe that they are doing God's will. Abman already admitted that he wouldn't be supporting this except he's convinced himself that God wants him to. What could we possibly say that would Trump God in his mind? I'd dare say, nothing. Except maybe if we could convince him that God is just a figment of his imagination, and others are using the notion of God to push their own agenda.

by the way, Abman, that's one of the oldest patterns in the book, and one of the most effective - that is, human beings convincing other human beings that they represent some all-powerful God, and that one must do what they say, because God wants one to. Once a person because so convinced, then all reason, all rationality, all fairness, all emotions, etc. get thrown out the window and this person can be got to do whatever their Earthbound "spiritual leader" wants them to.

How does it feel to have given your mind and your free will over to another person, on false pretenses? How does it feel to have fallen for one of the oldest tricks in the book?