Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

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_antishock8
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Re: Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

Post by _antishock8 »

bcspace wrote:
Okay, so please quote the part that says what the OP does. Joseph Smith punched three guys as he ran home. Altogether? One at a time? Did he drop the plates when he did this? etc. etc.

What details here invalidate the story? What details match what the OP claimed?



From, "Lucy Mack Smith, mother of Joseph Smith, in Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, 1853, pp. 104-105; Comp. reprinted edition by Bookcraft Publishers in 1956 under the title History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, pp. 107- 108"

"The plates were secreted about three miles from home... Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home."

After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. He was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running"


So. To review let's take Lucy Mack Smith's story and break it down for effect:

The plates were secreted about three miles from home...


So. The distance Joseph Smith purportedly carried the 40-200 lbs plates, while tucked under his arm, was three miles.

Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place


If a mob was coming to take the plates, why would he go retrive them? They're already hidden. He's the only one that knew where they were. This doesn't make any sense.

wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home


They didn't have bags back then? Why would he opt to use his coat? That just makes transporting 40-200 lbs worth of metal that much harder to manage. The frock would constantly unravel itself, and the plates would be sliding out of it.

Also, trying to carry such a heavy load, tucked under your arm, would be impossible over that distance. Your arm(s) would fatigue being in that position. That's why having a bad to place the heavy object in would make more sense because a farmer's carry is efficient.

Clearly, the story was meant to imply the plates were small, light, and able to be carried/transported with ease. Given physics, this is an impossible reality.

as he was jumping over a log


Please. Anyone. Hold 40-200 lbs in your arms and attempt to jump over a log. Not happening. Period.

a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun


Why would you hit someone with a gun? Just shoot the person, or hold him at gunpoint.

In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house


Anyone ever dislocate a finger or a thumb? Yeah. You damned notice it. And on top of that, try having a dislocated digit, and carry 40-200 lbs. You thought the feat was impossible before, now you're doing it with either the hand that's helping to bear the load, or the free hand that is use to correct and stabilize the load. Either way, ooooouch. Not happening.

So.

Story is bogus. Plates are bogus.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Phaedrus Ut
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Re: Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

Post by _Phaedrus Ut »

bcspace wrote:Seems to imply that you don't do much weighlifting. The 2.5 plates are easily assessible and make a big difference between getting the lift or not.


Hmm .... I don't "do much weightlifting"? Well to start I know how much the bar weighs, I know that the only place you might see 2.5lb plates actively used is over by the aerobics room or inside of a Curves® gym.

I've been actively weightlifting for 10+ years. I've taken Olympic style Weightlifting instruction at a regional training center for USA weightlifting. I train 5 days a week in power lifting, Olympic lifting, and kettlebell training.

I may be wrong.... but getting all the really basic stuff wrong is a pretty good indication that someone is just playing internet tough guy and doesn't know what they're talking about.

phaedrus

//sorry for the thread hijack folks. I just think BC is full of fertilizer
_harmony
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Re: Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

Post by _harmony »

Phaedrus Ut wrote:I've been actively weightlifting for 10+ years. I've taken Olympic style Weightlifting instruction at a regional training center for USA weightlifting. I train 5 days a week in power lifting, Olympic lifting, and kettlebell training.


I guess your avatar is somewhat misleading then. You can't be that old.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Phaedrus Ut
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Re: Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

Post by _Phaedrus Ut »

harmony wrote:I guess your avatar is somewhat misleading then. You can't be that old.


Nope mid 30's. When I was 16 i would have called myself a old fart. Now I just pretend I still have a few good years in me.


Phaedrus
_Gadianton
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Re: Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

Post by _Gadianton »

Phaedrus,

Thank you for your contribution, I have been on the verge of tears of laughter watching you debunk BCSpaces fables in the very same manner that one appropriately debunks Smith.

Truly, it should not be astounding that such an avid follower of Smith would make the same kinds of logical oversights Smith did when creating lies of his own.

And it's even more of a testament that the follower was so quick to pipe up -- after it was revealed how impossible it would be for even a very strong man to run around the woods with 60 pounds of plates for three miles while kicking ass -- and say "nuh uh, that's no big deal, I could do it."

lol
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_SatanWasSetUp
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Re: Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

Gadianton wrote: a very strong man to run around the woods with 60 pounds of plates for three miles while kicking ass


This made me chuckle, but these are the myths that members have built up about Joseph Smith. Don't forget, not only did he kick ass while carrying 60 lbs, he outran his attackers while carrying 60 lbs AND with a gimpy leg. And the gimpy leg was caused by major surgery on his bone while he was a boy, and he refused to take any alcohol to numb the pain. Even bone surgery is no match for the power of Joseph Smith. He was the Chuck Norris of the early nineteenth century.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

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_Scottie
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Re: Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

Post by _Scottie »

BC, what would it mean for you if this story were false? You seem to be the only apologist who is even attempting to defend it. And you really don't have much of a defense.

If, in your mind, this story were false, would Mormonism be false also? Why the need to so vigorously defend it? Why not simply say, "Yeah, this story seems a bit far fetched?"
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_Danna

Re: Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

Post by _Danna »

antishock8 wrote:From, "Lucy Mack Smith, mother of Joseph Smith, in Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, 1853, pp. 104-105; Comp. reprinted edition by Bookcraft Publishers in 1956 under the title History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, pp. 107- 108"

"The plates were secreted about three miles from home... Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and, wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home."

After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house. He was still altogether speechless from fright and the fatigue of running"


OK. I have been mucking about with this, and have issued a challenge to the family (and anyone else interested who happens to be near Palmerston North NZ). In the tradition of Pheidippides the challenge will be named the Palmyrathon. I have a couple of takers so far. My husband who thinks it will be impossible will also have a go. He is a very fit ex-Ranger Coy still serving officer.

Our local Army camp has a circuit exactly 1.5miles, (2.4km), next to the assault course - which is quite long. There are a few obstacles that expend upper body strength in a burst which will stand in for fending off and punching someone. The first obstacle will have to also incorporate an exercise to simulate working through a forest windfall. Because Lucy did not specifically mention that the plates were not placed down, and because the PTIs will probably not let us use the course otherwise, the 'plates' will not be carried while negotiating obstacles. So the Palmyrathon (revised) will be:

1. Jog twice around circuit (three mile jog to collect plates before mob gets there)
2. Uplift backpacks, 100m walk
3. The Nets. (up, over, and down the 20ft net obstacle)
4. 100m sprint
5. Round the circuit back to assault course (just under 1.5 miles)
6. The ditch (swing across ditch using the rope)
7. 100m sprint
8. Back around the circuit
9. The Monkey Bars (swing across under horizontal ladder about 10ft high)
10. Sprint to finish line to complete 3 miles.

The plates. We will go for a conservative weight of 50lb (22kilos). Mucking about with a coat, I have worked out Joseph could have jerry-rigged a carrying sling by threading the arms through the rings of the plates. This could have been slung across his chest. So we will use 50lbs in a backpack to avoid injuring anyone.

Anyway, any comments would be appreciated! We are just coming into spring, so good weather for this over the next few months.

Edit to add: DH (amused nevermo) thinks that a sling would have made all the difference, and that if there were no time limit (so running is reduced to short spurts mainly after being attacked) it would have been possible, particularly if the sling allowed Joseph to use both arms now and again. He would have been absolutely buggered at the end though. It will be interesting to see how long it takes in optimal conditions with backpacks.
_Ray A

Re: Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

Post by _Ray A »

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_bcspace
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Re: Something Farms/MI could actually prove...

Post by _bcspace »

So. To review let's take Lucy Mack Smith's story and break it down for effect:

The plates were secreted about three miles from home...


Yet the distance he actually ran at the top of his speed was 1/2 mile or 4 city blocks

So. The distance Joseph Smith purportedly carried the 40-200 lbs plates, while tucked under his arm, was three miles.


At a constant speed? I think we've already established that the plates were proabably closer to the 40-60 lb range. And seeing as how they were 8 x 7 x 4 inches, not a difficult carry.

If a mob was coming to take the plates, why would he go retrive them? They're already hidden. He's the only one that knew where they were. This doesn't make any sense.


Perhaps he felt that depsite his best efforts, someone spied him out. Not implausible at all.

They didn't have bags back then? Why would he opt to use his coat? That just makes transporting 40-200 lbs worth of metal that much harder to manage. The frock would constantly unravel itself, and the plates would be sliding out of it.


A big assumption. Of course, to make your story more plausible, you include a range going up to a much more implausible 200 lbs.

as he was jumping over a log

Please. Anyone.


40 - 60 lbs? What size log? Again, not implausible at all.

Quote:
a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun

Why would you hit someone with a gun? Just shoot the person, or hold him at gunpoint.


Ever see historical paintings of battles around this era? Why indeed.

In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house

Anyone ever dislocate a finger or a thumb?


Shoulder playing football. Didn't seem to notice very much until the defense came out, then it hurt quite a bit.

So anyway, the gym I go to is just a bike ride away from my house. The owner is LDS too and we were intrigued so both he and I ran up the street 4 blocks (1/2 mile) each with a bar over our shoulder. We went at a pretty good clip without stopping until the end and both agreed it would be much easier if the weight was confined to 8 x 7 x 4 inches but nevertheless, we did it.

So the bottom line is that the story is quite plausible indeed. by the way, thanks for being brave enough to provide the actual story (which doesn't seem to match the OP very well) despite the fact that the details didn't make it implausible.
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