Free Access to Out-of-Print Signature Books

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_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: Free Access to Out-of-Print Signature Books

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Ray A wrote:
LifeOnaPlate wrote:

Were I to say the same for you would it feel as condescending and uncharitable? I suspect such is the case.


Perhaps. But I think you are too intelligent to keep believing in religious fairy tales. And I'm not being uncharitable.



Smarter folk than me still believe. Faith is a funny thing. ;)
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Ray A

Re: Free Access to Out-of-Print Signature Books

Post by _Ray A »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:

Smarter folk than me still believe. Faith is a funny thing. ;)


I know what you're saying. And I still think, rightly or wrongly, that you believe for "spiritual reasons", not logical or analytical ones. I know you'll disagree, but "spiritual conviction" can cloud reason. I think that's why Gould referred to "two integrities", but one is based on fact, the other on belief. If the latter motivates "good behaviour", then it's hardly anything even a rational thinking person will discard. And I think this is why Gould spoke positively of religious belief. Dawkins himself has said that Darwinism isn't the best idea to promote a "moral society", if I read him correctly.

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Last edited by _Ray A on Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: Free Access to Out-of-Print Signature Books

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

breakfast, & etc. same old, Ray.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Ray A

Re: Free Access to Out-of-Print Signature Books

Post by _Ray A »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:breakfast, & etc. same old, Ray.


You'll eventually see what I've seen for a long time.

I'd have breakfast, lunch, or dinner with you anytime. If Scratch makes an appearance, that will be the icing on the cake.
_John Larsen
_Emeritus
Posts: 1895
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:16 pm

Re: Free Access to Out-of-Print Signature Books

Post by _John Larsen »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:
Ray A wrote:Perhaps. But I think you are too intelligent to keep believing in religious fairy tales. And I'm not being uncharitable.



Smarter folk than me still believe. Faith is a funny thing. ;)


There are smarter folks than me who believe all sorts of stupid things. If this really was your criteria, you would figure out which Church the most smart people adhered to, and join that. I don't think you are about to do that.
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: Free Access to Out-of-Print Signature Books

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

John Larsen wrote:There are smarter folks than me who believe all sorts of stupid things. If this really was your criteria, you would figure out which Church the most smart people adhered to, and join that. I don't think you are about to do that.


Who said anything about it being my "criteria?" I didn't bring up the relationship between intelligence and religion here.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Re: Free Access to Out-of-Print Signature Books

Post by _Sethbag »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:Smarter folk than me still believe. Faith is a funny thing. ;)

Oftentimes the smarter one is, the better equipped one is to invent justifications and excuses for what one believes, when it runs into snags. The real key here is to be able to recognize when one is justifying error and making excuses for one's belief, and force oneself to stop doing that.

In a book I recently read, and which I enjoyed so much that I'm reading it again, Anathem by Neal Stephenson, the author invented a historical figure named Diax, who had chased a bunch of numerologists out of the temple of Orithena with a gardener's rake, while yelling out something to the effect that one should not believe something because one wishes it to be true. In the history/mythology of this book's world, Diax laid the foundation for rigorous critical thinking and analysis which allowed such sciences as mathematics and physics to take off and prosper.

Thousands of years later, the monks who live in the monasteries of math/science/philosophy, who are at the center of this book's plot, often bring up what they call "Diax's rake", which is the rigorous examination of one's beliefs and arguments and weeding out of those things believed not on evidence or sufficient logic, but because they support what one wishes to be true. They impose it upon themselves and each other in their debates and discussions, and identify and weed out ideas that "wouldn't survive Diax's Rake."

Loap, will your ideas survive Diax's Rake?

The tipping point for me was when I was reading about the Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith's rampant, industrial-scale polygamy, and more importantly, the FARMS and other LDS excuses and justifications, and attacks, that sought to reconcile these things with the LDS church's truth claims, and realized that they won't survive the Rake.

I didn't know it as Diax's Rake at the time, and of course I live on Earth and not the world of Arbre, but find, looking back, that "Diax's Rake" is an extremely useful metaphor for the kinds of realizations and thoughts that I had at that tipping point in my life, when I realized that I had been making excuses, justifications, and fabricating ways of propping up my faith and supporting my beliefs in the teeth of contrary evidence. And so I stopped doing that. And you know what? I'm OK. My head didn't explode, my world didn't cave in, and the collapse of my faith in the truth claims of the LDS church, in the larger context of this world, in fact is natural, positive, and not that big a deal. It only seems like a big deal while you're still in that world.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_LifeOnaPlate
_Emeritus
Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: Free Access to Out-of-Print Signature Books

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

What do you currently believe which you are subjecting to the same scrutiny?

Parenthetically, it seems we can agree that the results of our searching can depend greatly on our expectations.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Ray A

Re: Free Access to Out-of-Print Signature Books

Post by _Ray A »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:
Parenthetically, it seems we can agree that the results of our searching can depend greatly on our expectations.


I totally agree. The question is, which "expectations" are more realistic?
Do you "expect" Santa Claus to arrive this Xmas? Do you "expect" to see one of the Three Nephites soon?
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