BKP Predicts the End of the World as We Know It?

[_Dr. Shades]

by the way, I've read parts of your missionary journal here and there. Cool! Thanks for posting it.

No, thank you for reading it!

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Mentalgym, you said, into which I'll inject (hoping you don't mind :-):

I've come to believe that things are not what they may "seem like" (In other words's, that all should be easily and immediately comprehensible to the human mind). A lesson early learned in Elementary School: the 7 times table. There are layers. There are levels. There are twists and turns. There are perceptual difficulties. Line upon line et al. There are a muddy messes. There are imperfect humans doing stupid things. Quite probably because of their Nurtures & Natures. There are mismangements of agency/choice that result in sorrow and pain. It's difficult to escape--without effort--one's environmental limitations & indoctrinations. There are anachronisms in both scripture and in real life. There are biochemical/physical difficulties that cause human afflictionsthat are hard to understand and/or accept, etc.
Not so much today as yesteryear. Thanks to sciences and developing human intelligence.

I believe there is a huge amount of wiggle room for agency and choice, and an allowance for incomplete knowledge/ability/disfunctional minds, etc. Trial & error lead to the finding of truth & its application--ideally--to the benefit of humanity. This is literally a fallen and corrupt world I strongly disagree. with a myriad of condundrums and puzzles to solve and/or overcome. I enthusistically agree.

The overriding assumption that I've made to this point is that there is an all knowing God, and an all powerful God who knows the end from the beginning and can make things right and as good as it can get at some point along an eternal spectrum of possibility. Moving from that position, I have concluded that universal laws are inviolable. Some we understand, apply and are thereby rewarded. Others we do not as yet comprehend, or "seem" to be in denial of. I figure if he can do it, we can at least attempt to do so, even in the here and now. We have no alternative but to "knock, seek & ask to find." This means, at least to me, that the message of the restoration needs to be taken seriously (because it is a message of exaltation and becoming like God). Seriously enough to allow for the things I've listed at the beginning of this post, and more, in the mix. I agree the "restoration message" should be taken seriously. Seriously enough to see & examine the ambiguities, improbables and unverifieables that base the premise of both Christian & Mormon folk lore.

Patience is key. Sure is! In other words"s, weathering the storm/onslaught. I see it as the pursuit of knowledge & discovery that humanity will enjoy being its "brother's keeper". At least "make the attempt."(

If I'd made a decision (in regards to faith/church activity) based upon what I had read in books/journals/magazines and on the internet during the first few (well maybe more than a few) years that the new Mormon history , updated Christian history, scientific theories, etc. became publically/readily available, I would be where you and many others are at today. Am I to take it you endure in denial of the "new findings"? Out of the church or silently suffering. Silently suffering IS not good. Fortunately I've met some good folks along the way that I've been able to talk things out with and reach somewhat of an equilibrium. Balanced on yer High-wire ? ;-)

I decided to hang in there. So far, so good. "good" is good. It's not an easy path What isn't easy about your path? and I can see why many struggle. What do you think makes them struggle?

And yes, I've had to keep working out at mentalgymnastics all along! What is it in your "work-out" that requires the most effort/challenge?

I appreciate your honesty & Spirit. Enjoy your moments.

Maybe this is a PS: "...the End of the World as We Know It"...might not be a bad thing?

Roger :-)

[_SatanWasSetUp]

There are anachronisms in both scripture and in real life.

No, there are no anachronisms in real life.

Well, in real life it is 2008, yet I know a guy who drives a 2002 Chevy. Is that not an anachronism in real life?

Of course, it was a Ford dealer who told me his Chevy was from 2002. The owner of the Chevy told me that if I want to know about his truck, I shouldn't go to a Ford dealer. I don't know who to trust.

[_mentalgymnast]

Hi Roger.

I was seeing so much red in your post I thought I'd failed the test and/or writing assignment!

Am I to take it you endure in denial of the "new findings"?

No. To do so would show a lack of integrity. I'm open to learning anything and everything that's out there.

What isn't easy about your path?

For one thing, it can be time consuming. I've eased off dramatically on the time I spend on a regular basis reading the kinds of stuff I read for a number of years. It's actually been a good thing. There are other things to do. Sometimes I'll pop in here and see what's happening, but I typically don't find anything dramatically new under the sun. Different faces, but pretty much the same stuff. But it's still interesting.

What is it in your "work-out" that requires the most effort/challenge?

To rethink and at times reconstruct things to try and make them fit within Mormonism and the church worldview.

Thanks for your response Roger. I value your insights.

Regards,
MG

[_Sethbag]

No, there are no anachronisms in real life.

Well, in real life it is 2008, yet I know a guy who drives a 2002 Chevy. Is that not an anachronism in real life?

No. It would be an anachronism if he were driving a 2012 Chevy.

[_Sethbag]

Mentalgymnast,
I respect your right to think as you will, but I cannot respect your approach to truth.

I think it's fairly obvious that the LDS church is a manmade institution, lead by Prophets who have access to no wisdom or truth that isn't available to any other human on Earth, and that the scriptures are works of fiction, sometimes (in the case of the Bible) historical fiction, sometimes (Book of Mormon) pure religiously-inspired fantasy. This is all fairly obvious.

Mental gymnastics are what people do to take these fairly plain and precious truths, and then find ways to twist and squirm and turn one's mind about trying to rationalize and excuse away all of the evidence, in order to leave their religious beliefs still appearing to be plausible. I think it's pretty clear that you retain belief in the LDS church because you have decided to believe it, and as a smart guy, you've found ways of molding and shaping your thinking in order to make such belief plausible, even in the face of hostile contrary evidence.

Every devout Jehovah's Witness does exactly the same thing, only with mental squirmings designed specifically to justify their own particular worldview. So do devout members of every other religion on Earth. There's a reason that there are still Zoroastrians on Earth, still Muslims, still Jehovah's Witness, still Roman Catholics, etc. It's because mental gymnastics are a technique used pretty much universally, tailored to the needs of each faith in their details.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Well, in real life it is 2008, yet I know a guy who drives a 2002 Chevy. Is that not an anachronism in real life?[/quote]
No. It would be an anachronism if he were driving a 2012 Chevy.[/quote]

OK. I have a 2005 vehicle, but the sticker in the door says it was manufactured in 2004. How can the guys at GM build a 2005 vehicle in 2004? How would they find 2005 parts to build their future car. That's an anachronism in real life. Come on, I'm trying to help out Mental Gymnast. :)

[_mentalgymnast]

Mentalgymnast,
I respect your right to think as you will, but I cannot respect your approach to truth.

I think it's fairly obvious that the LDS church is a manmade institution, lead by Prophets who have access to no wisdom or truth that isn't available to any other human on Earth, and that the scriptures are works of fiction, sometimes (in the case of the Bible) historical fiction, sometimes (Book of Mormon) pure religiously-inspired fantasy. This is all fairly obvious.

Mental gymnastics are what people do to take these fairly plain and precious truths, and then find ways to twist and squirm and turn one's mind about trying to rationalize and excuse away all of the evidence, in order to leave their religious beliefs still appearing to be plausible. I think it's pretty clear that you retain belief in the LDS church because you have decided to believe it, and as a smart guy, you've found ways of molding and shaping your thinking in order to make such belief plausible, even in the face of hostile contrary evidence.

Every devout Jehovah's Witness does exactly the same thing, only with mental squirmings designed specifically to justify their own particular worldview. So do devout members of every other religion on Earth. There's a reason that there are still Zoroastrians on Earth, still Muslims, still Jehovah's Witness, still Roman Catholics, etc. It's because mental gymnastics are a technique used pretty much universally, tailored to the needs of each faith in their details.

Hi Sethbag,

Before going any farther...and maybe this would be a good topic for another thread...would you outline why/how your approach to truth is superior to mine?

Your approach:
When all is said and done, stating repeatedly that "I think it's fairly obvious...", and then listing (or continuing to list) all the things that you personally don't believe in. As a matter of fact. In other words's, the thinking has been done.

My approach:
Study opposing points of view, look at the evidence, and make some tentative and yet reasonable conclusions/judgments. Choose whether or not it makes sense to continue to believe. Exercise some patience and wait to see if these conclusions/judgments hold water. Over a period of time continue to make observations as to whether or not any additional light and knowledge comes my way which may cause an adjustment to my thinking.

Sound close?

As I said earlier, at one time not so long ago I could (almost did a number of years ago now) have ended up where you're at. The problem is, that once a person has made a final/conclusive decision as to Mormonism being "obviously" false, you have committed the rest of your life to proving that this is so. There is no wiggle room for you.

Regards,
MG

[_Sethbag]

MG, I want to, and will reply in full to you, but I haven't had the time yet to post in a way that will do it justice. I hope to do it later today (Friday). Forgive the delay.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi MG, from your post:

Roger Morrison wrote:
What isn't easy about your path?



For one thing, it can be time consuming. I've eased off dramatically on the time I spend on a regular basis reading the kinds of stuff I read for a number of years. It's actually been a good thing. There are other things to do. Sometimes I'll pop in here and see what's happening, but I typically don't find anything dramatically new under the sun. Different faces, but pretty much the same stuff. But it's still interesting.

I think I misunderstood your mention of an "uneasy path"... I took it pertained to your daily path. Not to your time spent surfing MDB.

You did infer that once one comes to the conclusion that Christianity in general and Mormonism in particular are not authentic as they are understood to be, then one's mind closes. A generalization, or a personal opinion that is incorrect.

My mind is not closed. It is open to discuss and consider any and all findings that will validate the claims that base the faith of Christianism & Mormonism. Respectfully MG, testamonies and so-called spiritual experiences do not count as evidence. "Spiritual experiences" are not exclusive to either of those religious persuaisons.

That a church attendee might, can or will find comfort in attending the church of their choice confirms the good of group association as a spectator or as a participant in any human amalgamation designed to inform, instruct, inspire or entertan as their objective. Hence we have theatres, arenas, golf courses, churches etc. etc...

I respectfully suggest that church attendance might and can contribute to the quality of ones life. Or, it may not. But what church and its leaders--some very charismatic--cannot do is the impossible. They can influence, instruct and encourage in life-style behavior. As has been done since shaman days of old to the present.

They cannot, however, lead believers into another world that does not exist. They cannot validate themselves by association with an entity that does not exist.

While faith-based believers might be apalled by these thoughts--that's OK--those who accept, and understand, that reality find comfort in its truth; speaking for myself.

I think such folks tend to be more conscious, responsible and better stewards, knowing there is nothing magic here, nor is there another "better place", nor a "saviour" to redeem them (humanity) from their (its) "sins" (mistakes).

Does this mean there is no place for a "church"? Not in my opinion. Further in my opinion "church" will continue to evolve to eventually advocate and practice a more recognizable Jesusism that has nothing to do with the Fall, Salvation &/or Redemption as has traditionally been taught...

Warm regards,
Roger