How Wide The Divide?

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_Ray A

Re: How Wide The Divide?

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote:
Ray would be J.G. because he is not heavily emotionally invested in Mormonism. He does however accept supernatural explanations as likely possibilities so he's willing to accept statements from 1 st witnesses, or from J. Smith which involve the supernatural as credible with little skepticism.


I have been quite heavily emotionally invested in Mormonism, marg. That's what motivated me to redefine and accept that liberal interpretations could "save the day". As time has passed, I've realised that even that has failed. To this day I'm reassessing my stand on the Book of Mormon, and looking at inconsistencies in my own thinking (which I've been criticised for in the past).

Whether or not the supernatural is involved, the witness statements, even from those not involved in supernatural phenomena, are consistent. But as I noted to Jersey Girl, I'd rather keep this thread on the subject of modern apologetics.
_marg

Re: How Wide The Divide?

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote:

Whether or not the supernatural is involved, the witness statements, even from those not involved in supernatural phenomena, are consistent. But as I noted to Jersey Girl, I'd rather keep this thread on the subject of modern apologetics.



No problem with keeping the subject on modern apologetics but pleased stop discrediting the Spalding theory in the process, even if someone other than you brings it up.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: How Wide The Divide?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Ray A wrote:Jersey Girl, I've been open for many years, like since about the early 1980s when I went through Lester Bush, et al. The long Dan Vogel thread here also offered a reiteration of why Spalding fails on many counts. In the end it's a thesis, not a fact. An interesting one to boot, but one with too many serious gaps which fail at crucial points.

I would prefer to keep this thread on apologetics though.



Ray,

With all due respect, this current series of exchanges began as a response to your mention of the work of B.H. Roberts and folks drawing their own conclusions with regards to the historicity of the Book of Mormon. I added the nature of my own conclusions.

I won't press it further.

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Ray A

Re: How Wide The Divide?

Post by _Ray A »

Jersey Girl wrote:With all due respect, this current series of exchanges began as a response to your mention of the work of B.H. Roberts and folks drawing their own conclusions with regards to the historicity of the Book of Mormon. I added the nature of my own conclusions.


That's fine, Jersey Girl, but I was just saying I'd rather not go into the details of Spalding. Nor am I interested in going into how Roberts came to his conclusions, but more so the reactions to Roberts himself, and what that tells us about the nature of apologetics. For example, why Truman Madsen finds it convenient to eliminate a crucial aspect of Roberts' life in his biography of the same, and why that contributes to an apologetic tactic that can actually do harm, and which reflects, in my opinion, on the nature of most apologetics. Or, for example, why Thomas Ferguson (another informed amateur) is dismissed by Tvedtnes:

I long ago lost interest in Ferguson's work. He was a well-intentioned amateur and most of what he wrote has little bearing on the Book of Mormon, even when he was trying to provide evidence for it. Larson, on the other hand, is a much more serious scholar, and I have enjoyed some of his work. His gold plates book has two major flaws. The first is that he uses Ferguson as a vehicle to express his own doubts about the Book of Mormon. Most of the arguments are Larson's, not Ferguson's, and it seems to me that the subtitle of the book deceptively suggests that Ferguson had all the concerns mentioned. The second flaw is that Larson lists what he considers to be problem areas and totally ignores all the research that wipes away some of these problems. When the book came out, he sent me a letter noting that he had referred to me in a footnote and suggested that I would want to purchase the book because my name appears in it. But the footnote is a nondescript and insignificant item. He didn't refer to any of MY substantive research on the Book of Mormon. He did the same with a number of other people. I see nothing wrong with books that give preference to one side of the story, but it seems to me that once an argument has been adequately refuted, even if one continues to accept the argument, it behooves the author to acknowledge the opposing view and, if possible, respond thereto, rather than suggest that his is the final word. This is Stan's greatest failing. The situation is identical to the Alma fiasco at UMI, where not only did no one have the courage to acknowledge that the argument was invalid, but they continued to repeat it without even noting the refutation and trying to respond thereto.


(My emphasis and capitalisation)

Asked and Answered. No further questions needed. No detail about the remaining problems - Ferguson dismissed.

SHIELDS.

Funny. My understanding of Larson's book is quite different. But again, it's not the details of Ferguson's arguments I'm interested in, but the summary dismissal of him as "an amateur". Is Vedtnes a qualified anthropologist, and did he undertake 24 trips to Mesoamerica?
_Ray A

Re: How Wide The Divide?

Post by _Ray A »

For anyone interested in the apologetic battles within, This is a must read.

Former Area Authority Robert White, a member of the FAIR management board:

I am a member of the FAIR management board.


Later:

In post 8, Rod Meldrum refers to me as “Elder White”. I finished my call as an area seventy two years ago, and have never used the title “Elder” since. I did not sign the post to which he responds as “Elder White”, but rather as “Robert White”. Mr. Meldrum knows all of this. By choosing to distort even my name, and to thereby insinuate that I had applied the sacred title to myself when it is not mine to use, is relevant information for readers to use in evaluating what FAIR is doing, and why.

Comment by Robert White —


Meldrum replies:

I am sorry if you feel offended, but I was only doing so out of respect for your past calling and have been doing so many times over the past month and you never seemed to mind then. I will be happy to call you whatever you’d like. Bob, Robert, Brother White, whatever. It is not uncommon for people to refer to past members of the Seventy as ‘Elder’. I am sorry you are offended so easily. Please let me know which you would prefer and I’ll respectfully use that.


Comment from a reader:

FAIR, and FARMS are not the official voice of the LDS church. They are just people expressing their opinion just like everyone else. Please people, take FAIR and FARMS with a grain of salt…very little credibility. My family is un-phased by the spewing of FAIR and FARMS but instead listen to the Prophet Joseph Smith and the successors PERIOD.


Meldrum on FAIR's personal attacks:

I must admit that FAIR’s personal attacks of their first posted review have been for the most part removed from this series of reviews. For that I have now several time expressed my gratitude for their cleaning up their remarks. I agree that FAIR has moved from the personal attacks to a less combative and more ojective (yet still highly biased) review, for which I highly commend them. The tone of my reply will certainly reflect that objectivity.


Another interesting post from Robert White:

You make this statement: “Brother White, are you saying that members of the church are ‘gullible’ and simply lack the intellegence or sufficient spirit to discern whether something is true or not without the help of FAIR?” Now Rodney, you know that is not what I am saying and I am surprized at you. Just a few lines ahead of that you set out what I did say: “Latter-day Saints are gullible for the best possible reason: they would not mislead someone, and don’t expect that someone would mislead them. Therefore, when a presentation is opened by prayer, when as on the DVD a former general authority says some things, when the thread of the presentation is made to appear to be revelations to the Church from the Prophet Joseph Smith…” they trust the presentation. When someone presents something, as you do, in a way the Church would, they tend to believe it. And may God bless them for it. This can result in them being taken advantage of; but better that than to be suspicious of everyone. People who are not our friends have asked why President Kimball did not see at once that Mark Hoffman was a crook. You know the the answer: that isn’t the first–or second or even the tenth–thought that comes to the minds of the Latter-day Saints. They get hurt; but for the best possible reasons.

Now, as for “denigrating the “good feelings” others have felt…”: When a Latter-day Saint believes he is safely within a Church context, and hears something that could make him feel glad, it is common although not wise to think that the feeling is a witness of the Holy Ghost. Rodney, you know full well, but have never told people, that I have told you that when I first watched your DVD, although there were some soft spots and loose ends, I felt thrilled with it. You have heard me say that I thouht: “This brother may have finally got all of this right. And it’s based upon Joseph Smith, the Prophet I love. And I can stop worrying about the problems I see with Mesoamerica.” I had very, very good feelings and as with other Latter-day Saints I had didn’t think a brother would mislead me. But that was not any witness by the Holy Ghost, and I thank God that I know the difference. Had I not, frankly put: you would have converted me. But fortunately, I and thousands of others have learned, often through sad experience, that good feelings and a witness by the Spirit are not the same thing. For example, many people, to their shame and to other’s misfortune, have mastered the art of making youth cry and leading them to think they are feeling the spirit when what they are feeling is emotion. The damage done is hard to repair.


The Holy Ghost is now unreliable. Go Here to find the Truth.
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Re:

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Ray A wrote:Not every footnote, and not even every page, but the central thesis of the book is what interested me. . . If there was a "gotcha" moment in the book, it would have been mentioned in those sections.

NO NO NO NO NO!!!

In this book, the "gotcha" moments are ***NOT*** in the first or last portions of the book. They are mentioned throughout the text, whereas the specific, detailed, and damning accounts--such as when Rigdon showed his landlord in Pittsburgh the Spalding Manuscript and told him what he thought could be done with it, then years later when Sidney Rigdon spilled the beans to the Innkeeper after Brigham Young had ousted him from Nauvoo--THOSE are just two examples of the "gotcha" moments, and they're in the footnotes, not the beginning or ending sections.

You ought to read the footnotes and at least scan the text. You're missing out on the real bread and butter of the book if you only examine it like you did it.

In any case, thanks for sending it to me. I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

You're certainly welcome, but READ THE FOOTNOTES!!
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Ray A

Re: Re:

Post by _Ray A »

Dr. Shades wrote:...such as when Rigdon showed his landlord in Pittsburgh the Spalding Manuscript and told him what he thought could be done with it, then years later when Sidney Rigdon spilled the beans to the Innkeeper after Brigham Young had ousted him from Nauvoo--THOSE are just two examples of the "gotcha" moments, and they're in the footnotes, not the beginning or ending sections.


I'll check it out.
_Blixa
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Re: How Wide The Divide?

Post by _Blixa »

Brief thread jack: C.L.R. James is wonderful. I love The Black Jacobins and use it whenever I teach an African American Lit course or any American historical survey course (my argument being that any study of "america" necessarily needs to look at the Caribbean and "central" and "south" as well as "north" america).

I've found your documentation of your argument quite interesting in this thread--you've pointed up examples that I was unaware of even though I, like anyone, gets exposed to the "amateur" vs. "scholar" line with any exposure to contemporary Mormon apologia. And I think, too, that it's also extremely clear what kind of final "argument" this stuff is working toward: "everything's been answered, more intelligent people than me believe in it." That is the entire ideological effect contemporary Mormon apologetics aims for: to dispel doubt and create perception that all is well. For all the window-dressing of scholarly titles, inflated rhetoric, and opportunistic use of any and all philosophical tendencies, the project is profoundly anti-intellectual.

I guess what I would be interested in hearing your speculation on, Ray, is why this has come about, what are the conditions of necessity for this approach? What explains the historical shift from B.H. Roberts to (fill in the black with whoever)? How to account for Arrington to (is it Turley?) or early Bitton to later Bitton (an even more stark contrast)?

I think the most popular response would be to talk about the impact of the internet and the resulting increase in the circulation of previously less-accessible texts and arguments. But I don't think that is the entire story and I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on connecting apologetics to internal institutional shifts and transformations (especially the place of "correlation" in all of this) as well as the connections between those "local" changes and larger historical forces which shaped them.

And of course this too, is an interesting open question:

"Nibley has been of far more interest to me as a social and Church critic. I can think of no one inside apologetic circles today who does this the way he did. And I wonder why."
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_harmony
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Re: How Wide The Divide?

Post by _harmony »

Ray A wrote: When basic faith and the Prophets fail - turn to the Scholars.


The church is going to hell in a handbasket, if this is how a majority of members feel.

Fortunately, I think the number of members who feel this way is a very small miniority. Very small.

I suspect many members in the mission field (a.k.a., anywhere outside of Utah) would read the article in the Trib that quoted the FAIR spokesperson and not be at all fazed. Why? Because they don't know who or what FAIR is, and couldn't care less.

The church is more than Utah Mormons (thank you, God!)
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Ray A

Re: How Wide The Divide?

Post by _Ray A »

Blixa wrote: I've found your documentation of your argument quite interesting in this thread--you've pointed up examples that I was unaware of even though I, like anyone, gets exposed to the "amateur" vs. "scholar" line with any exposure to contemporary Mormon apologia. And I think, too, that it's also extremely clear what kind of final "argument" this stuff is working toward: "everything's been answered, more intelligent people than me believe in it." That is the entire ideological effect contemporary Mormon apologetics aims for: to dispel doubt and create perception that all is well. For all the window-dressing of scholarly titles, inflated rhetoric, and opportunistic use of any and all philosophical tendencies, the project is profoundly anti-intellectual.

I guess what I would be interested in hearing your speculation on, Ray, is why this has come about, what are the conditions of necessity for this approach? What explains the historical shift from B.H. Roberts to (fill in the black with whoever)? How to account for Arrington to (is it Turley?) or early Bitton to later Bitton (an even more stark contrast)?


It's funny how realisations happen, and often from personal experience. Here's my basic theory. I go back to B.H.Roberts' two categories of "disciples pure and simple", and "the thinkers". Roberts suggested that while disciples pure and simple could be very effective testimony-bearers, they were also "repeaters". They are content to hold fast to the Iron Rod while repeating simple formulas. But Roberts believed that there would eventually be more effective disciples in the thinkers, who would go on to reshape and redefine belief in new and interesting ways that would make it more appealing to the masses. He considered himself among the latter. Think of his Studies project. His fellow brethren weren't interested in this unless "it would help our cause". Roberts, however, was more interested in finding the truth, but towards the end of his studies, his now famous words were written, "How shall we escape these difficulties?" Roberts foresaw a coming catastrophe in belief unless something was done, and that it would particularly afflict the young generation, but I don't believe he had the answer either. Because of his studies, I believe that Roberts' belief in the Book of Mormon was shaken to the core. What apologists have neglected is that he drew these conclusions not only on archaeological anachronisms (some of which have been answered), but on the very imitation style of the Book of Mormon, created by an "imaginative but overzealous religious mind at work". He clearly thought it was possible for Joseph Smith to have written the Book of Mormon. The "thinkers" Roberts imagined would arise to "redefine" and extend Mormon doctrine in "new and interesting formulas" have actually turned out to be heretics, or "liberal Mormons".

FARMS was created in 1979 with the intent of promoting studies of the Book of Mormon, but eventually it turned fully to the defence of Mormonism, and later on FAIR and FARMS would join hands in this grand apologetic effort. In c.1987 I wrote John Welch offering my withdrawal from any form of FARMS activity (I was initially a volunteer), and was critical of the direction FARMS was going in, but my interest was revived when DCP and the RBBM came into existence, later to become the FARMS Review. I think I've already noted that it was DCP's controversial move to "tackle" anti-Mormonism that piqued my interest, but by the late '90s I had lost interest even in that. And I feel that, notwithstanding all the efforts at apologetics, in the end it's a bit like flogging a dead horse. You really only can continue to be a true believer if you ignore a significant amount of evidence to the contrary, a phenomenon noted by Eric Hoffer, and also in the book When Prophecy Fails.

The true believer is undeterred by contrary evidence, and instead of reformulating belief, reinforces the defence of the indefensible, and this is what apologetics has become. So instead of, for example, acknowledging Roberts' points about the Book of Mormon, and his real doubts about its historicity, any "liberal" interpretation of Roberts as a serious closet doubter, has become "abuse of Roberts" (the list of citations to Roberts' public addresses is endless, and no consideration is given to his private doubts such as his private conversation with Wesley Lloyd. Every angle to discredit that will be taken, because it throws light on the real Roberts). This is a "symptom" of modern apologetics, and it is the failure to acknowledge real problems and more honestly address them that has, in my opinion, caused many to think that much apologetics is nothing but window-dressing.

Blixa wrote:
And of course this too, is an interesting open question:

"Nibley has been of far more interest to me as a social and Church critic. I can think of no one inside apologetic circles today who does this the way he did. And I wonder why."


For all his apologetic fluff, Nibley was unafraid to speak out at what he perceived as "misdirected zeal", or "zeal without knowledge". Of course he was speaking of the "disciples pure and simple", and things like BYU offering courses on subjects when it had a pathetic library of information on the subject. I'm not sure how much he would have internalised his own comments and criticisms in regard to the wider field of apologetics. But such an assessment is surely long overdue.

I don't know if there is a soultion, nor do I see any way to "escape the difficulties". But for the apologist, that would be admitting defeat. So my prediction is that the apologetic ship Zion will keep going forward - as fast and smooth and as efficient as the Titanic.
Last edited by _Ray A on Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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