Racism and Mormonism

[_richardMdBorn]

Great topic! Edited out too much information :)

I don't think the voting patterns of black Americans is outside the norm in this Presidential election. Do you really think if it was a Republican that was running and he or she happened to be black that the votes would have been that similar? Is the general black population fond of Clarence Thomas? Naw.

Wow. What a shame you deleted all that information. It was a wonderful post. Very enlightening...

No. I don't think a Republican Black nominee would have garnered nearly as many votes. What percentage? I don't know. My intuition says around 40%, which would have been a huge shift...

When Lynn Swann ran for governor of Pennsylvania two years he would have been the first black man to hold that post. However, he was a conservative and liberals did not support him. Conservative blacks must be destroyed by liberals since they're a threat to the Democratic hold on black voters.

[_antishock8]

I didn't grow up LDS, so can't offer insight into that aspect. I do think that, given past LDS teachings about the issue, that a Mormon would be more prone to racism, and less prone to recognizing it as well.

Personally, I grew up with parents who bent over backwards to avoid transmitting racism of any kind.

Perhaps other "whities" aren't eager to try and engage in serious discussion with you at the moment, given your recent history of hyperbole and distortion. Really, if you're going to continue that approach, it's not worth the bother.

I engage in hyperbole and distortion as an illustrative counterpoint to hyperbole and distortion. I've asked, for example, Mr. Peterson to just be honest and frank when posting here, and he straight up refuses to do it. So he continues to get what he puts out.

You yourself, outside of Mormon critiquing seem to do the same thing with bias and garbage links to websites with a clear agenda. If you want thoughtful commentary, then be thoughtful. Stop being a cheerleader, and be rational. You'll get the same from me.

----

Back to the point, since you work with with a lot of AA's, do you experience bigotry from them, or do you feel like they're free of racial prejudice? In my personal experience, it's something that seems to be pervasive, and ever present. Even when we're getting along, there's an awareness that we're different; different culturally, politically, genetically, etc... But it seems to me, that the cultural differences are what drives this subtle sense of alienation. For example, my daughter has a few black friends who are called Oreos by their peers. Yet, it's with THESE kids that I have no problem, at all, and in fact love that my kid is hanging out with them. They're just good people. And I, as a parent, am more concerned with the character of the children my daughter spends time with, than any other factor. Period.

Do you experience anything like that, in the sense that any uneasy feeling you have with other non-whites is based more in cultural differences than appearance?

[_antishock8]

In contrast, I have to admit that I still struggle with sexist tendencies and Mormonism had much to do with it. The teaching that women have inherently different talents and roles in society, that they are to be subservient followers to males, was pervasive in my church and my home. My mother lived that role and my sisters were raised to live it as well, and I was taught to expect it. I hate it but I think it's still inside me, to some degree. The worst material effect of this can be seen in how it set up the first few years of my marriage: I was happy to have my wife quit school and get a job to help me finish at BYU (my own mother did the same). Now my wife doesn't have a college degree and has a very difficult time getting a good job when we need a second income, plus there are self-esteem issues when so many of my female work friends don't have just bachelor's degrees, but PhDs as well. I blame Mormonism for starting us on this backward path, for the gross imbalance.

http://www.nowhampshire.com/content/nh- ... e-majority

I think the sentiments you expressed about sexism is one of the reasons why I liked the choice of Palin so much. I have two daughters, and it's a consistent battle to reorient them to a life of individualism and achievement when they get so many messages of subordination; especially from the mother who lives in Utah. It's an exciting time for women in the US, but they have to fight for every gain, and cling to their gains tenaciously. Otherwise, they risk losing it to men who don't have a problem taking it away.

Tangential thought...

I couldn't understand why Mormons were so against the ERA. I remember being taught that women, in the life after, will hold the priesthood. If that's some sort of "deep doctrine", then I don't know why Mormon men have issues with women leading lives similar to their inside and outside the home. They're essentially the same in an eternal perspective. It's odd to me that men think women are somehow so special and so capable that only THEY can raise a family, or that only MEN should be working because it's a man's world. I work with many women in my field that far outpace and outperform men. I also raise my two daughters on my own, by choice. It's nothing but a thing to be involved. There's no magic gender ability that makes an adult more capable in one field or another. It just boils down to desire and discipline.

[_The Dude]

I think the sentiments you expressed about sexism is one of the reasons why I liked the choice of Palin so much. I have two daughters, and it's a consistent battle to reorient them to a life of individualism and achievement when they get so many messages of subordination; especially from the mother who lives in Utah.

Okay, I can see that. For me, there were too many other things wrong with Palin for me to admit that latent sexism biased me against her. OTOH, I was never a big fan of Hillary Clinton even though I largely agree with her politics and I believe she would be a competent leader. I tell myself I don't like her style, but maybe it goes deeper. I think about this stuff. Mormon guilt.

One more: Nancy Pelosi bugs the hell out of me. But I always liked Barbara Boxer back when I was a Californian.

[_antishock8]

I think the sentiments you expressed about sexism is one of the reasons why I liked the choice of Palin so much. I have two daughters, and it's a consistent battle to reorient them to a life of individualism and achievement when they get so many messages of subordination; especially from the mother who lives in Utah.

Okay, I can see that. For me, there were too many other things wrong with Palin for me to admit that latent sexism biased me against her. OTOH, I was never a big fan of Hillary Clinton even though I largely agree with her politics and I believe she would be a competent leader. I tell myself I don't like her style, but maybe it goes deeper. I think about this stuff. Mormon guilt.

One more: Nancy Pelosi bugs the hell out of me. But I always liked Barbara Boxer back when I was a Californian.

I think it's understandable to not like a candidate based on their political ideology. I think Pelosi is a child of privilege, and it's apparent in the manner in which she conducts her politics. While I think it's cool that she's the first female speaker of the House, I've been disappointed by her partisanship, and especially by the subordination she demonstrated when she wore a headscarf on her tour in the Middle East. It sent a powerful message to the Patriarchy that a woman's place is to kowtow to men. It was an unfortunate and ignorant political mistake.

She is hot, though. A SOTHILF.

[_beastie]

I engage in hyperbole and distortion as an illustrative counterpoint to hyperbole and distortion. I've asked, for example, Mr. Peterson to just be honest and frank when posting here, and he straight up refuses to do it. So he continues to get what he puts out.

You yourself, outside of Mormon critiquing seem to do the same thing with bias and garbage links to websites with a clear agenda. If you want thoughtful commentary, then be thoughtful. Stop being a cheerleader, and be rational. You'll get the same from me.

I believe you mean “stop disagreeing with me politically and then I’ll perceive you as rational again”.

Back to the point, since you work with with a lot of AA's, do you experience bigotry from them, or do you feel like they're free of racial prejudice? In my personal experience, it's something that seems to be pervasive, and ever present. Even when we're getting along, there's an awareness that we're different; different culturally, politically, genetically, etc... But it seems to me, that the cultural differences are what drives this subtle sense of alienation. For example, my daughter has a few black friends who are called Oreos by their peers. Yet, it's with THESE kids that I have no problem, at all, and in fact love that my kid is hanging out with them. They're just good people. And I, as a parent, am more concerned with the character of the children my daughter spends time with, than any other factor. Period.

Do you experience anything like that, in the sense that any uneasy feeling you have with other non-whites is based more in cultural differences than appearance?

Of course African Americans aren’t free of racial prejudice. Has anyone ever suggested that they are?

I haven’t experienced a significant amount of bigotry – in fact, I could probably count on one hand incidents I felt could have been the result of bigotry, and still have fingers left over. In fact, I only remember one. The only incident I clearly remember, from probably 15 years ago, is one AA child who got in trouble at school told me I just fussed at him because he was black. I expect he heard that at home, although I don’t know for sure. It’s not the type of thing a child would come up with on his own. I don’t think he really believed it, however. I never heard that again from him, nor did his parents express that to me. Children are very sensitive to issues of fairness and justice, and they notice if you treat anyone differently for any reason. Since I’ve only been accused of that the one time I remember in well over twenty years of teaching, I feel safe stating that I am quite fair in my treatment of my students. I love and care for all of them, regardless or race. They know that.

However, I do know of one African American teacher who was openly biased to nonwhite children. That was also about 15 years ago. I suspect that there have been white teachers who have been openly biased to white children, but I haven’t heard anyone whisper about it. It was probably more noticeable when a black teacher was doing so.


Children are not born prejudiced or bigoted. Adults have to teach them to be so. The children I teach are young enough that, perhaps, the teachings haven’t become engrained yet, if they are being exposed to them. I have heard that students naturally segregate themselves in the lunchroom at the high school level. That does not happen at the elementary level.

I have several African American coworkers – teachers, aides, other staff. I have never sensed any bigotry from any of them whatsoever. I feel far more “different”, culturally, from coworkers due to the religious issue than I do from any other issue. I live in a very conservative Baptist area, and African Americans are just as religious as whites, if not more so.

I am very proud that we have elected Obama, not just because I truly believe he will be a better president than McCain would have been, but also because it delights me that my students now can see a face that looks like their own in that esteemed line. Wednesday, my eyes became wet when one of my African American girls came into the room with a huge smile, and said, “We have our first black president!” I replied, “Yeah, isn’t that great??” I also got a giggle when one of my AA male students piped up, “No, he’s our SECOND black president”. I looked at him surprised, and then said, “you mean President Clinton?” He nodded yes. I did tell him that Clinton was actually white, but people said he was the first black president because he was so friendly with blacks. I’m not sure he believed me. I think he may have thought Clinton really was black. He probably heard that at home. I thought it was pretty funny.

It’s hard for me to believe that anyone could have watched the celebration at Grant Park, and saw Jesse Jackson with tears streaming down his face and not have been touched and moved, even if they disagree with Jackson’s politics, and even if they did not vote for Obama. There are still people living who were hosed and harassed for fighting for civil rights, and who knew those who were killed in the struggle. How can we, as a nation, not be proud that we have come this far in one generation?

And yes, I also look forward to a female president. I could have guessed, however, that the ceiling would have been shattered first for a black man. As the dude mentions, prejudices against powerful females tends to be more engrained and accepted in this society still today, and not just in Mormonism. One day, one day.

[_cinepro]

The most interesting thing for me about Mormon racial attitudes is that for many decades, race was a choice for Mormons, not an inherent trait.

Racism is obviously wrong for many reasons, but one of those reasons is that people don't choose which race they're born into. It's not their fault.

But the LDS idea that blacks were born into that race based on choices made in the pre-existence introduces the entirely original idea that black people had, in fact, "chosen" their race based on their actions. It wasn't just a result of genetics and a random coupling of their parents.

So, since black people were black because of pre-mortal choices they had made, would it really be racist to judge them any differently than we would someone who went to jail because of poor choices they had made, or had otherwise been punished for showing poor judgment in the past?

[_beastie]

So, since black people were black because of pre-mortal choices they had made, would it really be racist to judge them any differently than we would someone who went to jail because of poor choices they had made, or had otherwise been punished for showing poor judgment in the past?

That's exactly why I said they're probably more inclined to be racist, and less inclined to perceive their own racism.

Of course, that's probably changing with revisionist history.

[_bcspace]

During the election a lot of charges of racism were thrown around, and it caused me to wonder how much Mormonism influenced all us of regarding latent and overt racism. I also was wondering why some people seem to overcompensate for their latent racism by obssessively fixating on race as factors in and out of politics.

This reasoning is left-wing mythology. The fact of the matter is that when you look at all the black people be interviewed about their thoughts after the election, you find that race is the primary motivation in their comming out to vote for Obama.

In the flip side, it was the Mormons who kept the KKK from taking root in Utah.

[_antishock8]

I believe you mean “stop disagreeing with me politically and then I’ll perceive you as rational again”.

Oh, you don't have a problem with taking Mormons to task for their Mormonsim, but you get butthurt when someone takes you to task for your slavish devotion to the Democratic party. You're in the same boat, just different rows, lady.