A Challenge For Gazelam

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey Girl, start your very own op and ask why. You still won't get it, but it'll be explained to you 4 ways from Sunday. Please stop bothering me.

Inc,

I think it unrealistic for you to direct a comment to me without expecting a response. Your comment that you don't read responses to my posts makes no sense. Of course I don't get it. It doesn't make compositional sense.

If you are bothered by a request for clarification, take better care about how you write here.

What you're doing here, Inc, is hopping on a band wagon. Instead of attacking issues, you're joining in others in attacking a single poster. That's both unwise and unproductive unless your goal is to hold one person up for public ridicule.

Are you here to attempt to resolve or forward issues or take cheap shots at Gaz? And if you're here to take cheap shots at Gaz, how much more honor is there in that than his cheap shots at Gays?

[_Jersey Girl]

Inc

Gaz,

You got some 'splaining to do. Your God is a real A-hole for raising you the way he did. You haven't noticed that He has changed His mind since Old Testament times. There are a lot of things He does not do anymore now that Jesus has taught Him a little about tolerance and love. Nevertheless..

If his God is the asshole, then his God has some explaining to do, not Gaz for being 'raised' by him. Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus condemn or condone homosexual sex. Except for general prohibitions regarding fornication, Jesus was silent on homosexuality and yet there is no reason (other than possibly the case of the Roman centurion and his servant) to think that Jesus tolerated homosexuality.

Study your Bible before making such assertions.

The Bible is fraught with prohibitions of all sorts. Christian's typically ignore the bulk of Levitical Law, for example, and focus specifically on references to homosexual sex.

Bible believer's would do well to research and examine the socio-religious customs and cultural practices of the time period in which specific scriptures were written. Examples, Pagan sexual temple rites, Pagan temple prostitution, Sojourner Law (and comparisons of references to Sodom and other cities that were destroyed at the same general time) the Greco-Roman social conditioning practice of pederasty that Paul likely wrote in opposition to.

You see, Inc, it's quite possible to attack the issues without attacking a single poster. Try defending a position and arm yourself with knowledge, Inc.

It's far more productive.

[_Mister Scratch]

Well, let me put it a different way. Placing oneself high above Gaz and his wife morally, requires little more than making a rameumptum out of a bottle cap.

Let me put it this way. You have no room to talk, sir.

Wow! What a provocative statement. And how would you know this, Jersey? I really have to wonder what is up with your remark here. Are you simply assuming things? Or, were things told to you in confidence, which, in your endless thirst for drama, you are now dragging to the surface? Please feel free to share, Jersey, since you "hate" gossip so much.

[_Ray A]

Gaz should be able to defend himself. He's done it more times than I can count. He has well over 3,000 posts here, and "owns" the longest running thread on this board. While most Mormons prefer the "sanctuary" of MADB, Gaz has obviously preferred posting here.

He is a Mormon that anyone can respect. At least, that's what I think. I'll rephrase pseudo-Voltaire in my own words. I strongly disagree with some of Gaz's opinions, but I will defend to the death his right to express them.

[_Mister Scratch]

I strongly disagree with some of Gaz's opinions, but I will defend to the death his right to express them.

Ray, it nearly breaks my heart when I read such things. When will the LDS Church adopt such a radical, ethical, and fair-minded viewpoint? When will we see this amongst the FARMS crew? When will we see this among Jersey Girl?

[_collegeterrace]

Stop it already Jersey Girl.

Is this a two birds one stone thing? Dis KA and groom Gaz?

You will not deconvert Gaz with your facade of nice. Is it worth the price of stepping on KA and her sister?

[_Ray A]

Ray, it nearly breaks my heart when I read such things. When will the LDS Church adopt such a radical, ethical, and fair-minded viewpoint? When will we see this amongst the FARMS crew?

Probably never. Because the apologist of any religion isn't interested in Truth. He/she is only interested in preserving faith. So when someone like Quinn details how 19th century Church leaders lied, with meticulous documentation, don't expect a reply. Just expect the survellience cameras to roll into action. And if the historian's sexuality is "questionable", then you can discount every footnote or point he/she has ever made. Here is the general rule in the case of Quinn: Ignore the factual. Highlight the "fact" that a historian's sexuality, not research, determines his credibility. Never reply to his early work, but seek to discredit him on the basis that because he's trying to present documented truth, he's actually trying to justify his homosexuality.

Well, at least that's how it works in apologetics.

[_Sam Harris]

In my case I'll inject a little reminder here. But first, let me make it clear that I like Gaz, and always have. I suggested long before Gadianton did, that Gaz was probably only venting feelings he'd never follow through with in real life. I'm old and senile enough to realise that, and have five adult children of my own.

Yesterday Gaz made a spirited appeal to me to "hang on", and let the Holy Ghost lead me, and I expressed my admiration for him as a person, and I'm sure in real life he is a good person, husband and father.

Then he wrote this in response to Mike Reed:

What they should have done was grab your head and drive their knee into your face. And its hard to be concerned over your video camera when your picking it out of your teeth.

All I asked was, is this what you call Christianity?

I'd like to tie my thoughts in with Ray's, I think that Gaz has changed since coming onto these boards, he used to be quite Peter Priesthood, but on another thread he spoke about how he had learned a lot from people who had left the church. Change is change, even if it's only a little.

Gaz and I used to go back and forth all the time, and at first I thought I wasn't going to like him. But we forged a tentative friendship, and it grew. I consider him to be a good guy. But with that said, I know he has moments of heated emotion (like most of us do), and we all type things we're not proud of. We all do things we're not proud of.

I don't think KA is placing herself about Gaz, I think the idea of praying to love people he doesn't understand or have contact with is a good thing. I don't really feel like her post was putting him down, rather challenging him like the title of this thread says. It's a very hard thing to learn to love those you don't understand or fear, or even those who hurt you.

Perhaps Gaz and KA will be able to dialogue more and come to a better understanding. I admire KA a great deal, because she is one of the few that I know of who left Mormonism without swinging to some other sort of extreme, be it extreme atheism or extreme religion of some sort. From my experience with the ex-mormon world, many who leave the church only volley from the extremes of the LDS world to the extremes of something else. They think they're free just because they're not Mormon anymore, but all they've done is replace one object of worship for another. There is no gray area.

[_Sam Harris]

I'm not at all trying to put myself above Gaz.

I know where he's coming from, religiously, because we have a similar background. I am asking him to pray just to see what happens with his own thinking. I have myself prayed for people with whom I did not get along, and found that it changed my thinking. And even if one does not believe God is involved in prayer, it's still a good way to meditate and mull over one's thoughts.

Also, since Gaz's feelings were personally directed at my sister, then I don't feel out of line asking him to pray over his conceptions of her and others like her. If he softens his stance, that would be great. If not, no harm done.

Kimberly

I found your opening post touching and well-put.

[_Sam Harris]

Fourth, I'll ask now that folks not rail on Gaz. Perhaps posters who used to feel somewhat the way Gaz feels

With all due respect Kim, how likely is it that anyone here, well, just about anyone here, has ever felt "somewhat the way Gaz feels"? I understand what you're saying to the point of being generally "anti-gay", thinking it's bad, evil, and sinful. That's one thing, and anyone with a Mormon background probably felt the same way at one point. I think I even did. But, I think it would be very uncommon for most Mormons to wish "blood atonement" on the sister of someone they know. Heck, most Mormons either don't know what blood atonemet means or pass it off as some "wild" Brigham Young teaching that the church doesn't believe in. I've never met a Mormon in real life who believes in blood atonement at all. Let alone a BY era reconstructionist who wishes to bring back the doctrine in revenge against gay people. It's too far out there, Kim. No one here has seriously "struggled with similar feelings" like this. I'm not even so sure that Gaz struggles with these feelings, I'm half thinking it's some weird ploy to get sexual attention from women online.

I'm sorry, but I find it so hypocritical when folks who were so peter priesthood before they found out the church wasn't true try to go back and act like they were always those liberal, rational Mormons before they left.

Many of you who are anti are so angry because you look back at those who are still LDS and realize that you used to be just like them. You dislike them so much because you see your old self in them.

Let's be real, folks.