Sublime thoughts o' Shades, CHAPTER TWO

[_Dr. Shades]

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On MormonDiscussions.com, what people say they want is generally B.S. What people merely say they want is not, in reality, what they want.

This observation is again born from my deep understanding of human nature, at least how it manifests on message boards, thanks to my experience over lo these many years.

People clamored long and hard for an "ignore" feature, but I had the sneaking suspicion that most of them didn't really want it. People have been demanding higher-caliber discourse on this board, but I think many people are merely "high-balling" in order to make themselves look more respectable.

Confused? You have every right to be. Therefore, let's take a trip back to another time, to another message board.

In the course of some long-forgotten (except by me) discussion, beastie brought up a politics board on which she participated for a time. She mentioned that she would get frustrated, flustered, and angry about the things said there. But, to her credit, she noted that she always went back for more. Taking stock of the situation, she admitted that the adrenaline rush (or whatever it was) generated by participating there fulfilled some sort of need, anger or no anger.

Therefore, porting that lesson over to MormonDiscussions.com, what do we see? We see this: Now that people have exactly what they wanted in our new "ignore" feature, that's when they started leaving. En masse, according to harmony.

For some reason, even though people can finally ignore the other people they don't like, now is the time they choose to jump ship. This can only be because their needs are no longer being met. Ergo, they subconsciously want to see Jerry Springer-style knock-down, drag-out fights. They want to see posts generated by folks like PP, etc. Why? Probably because such posts provide that addictive adrenaline rush born through the anger generated by seeing them.

Therefore, in summary, I have a (very) sneaking suspicion that many of the calls for higher-level discourse are merely subconscious attempts to appear high-brow to the rest of the crowd. Were this not so,

• The Celestial Forum would be the most heavily-populated forum, not the Terrestrial Forum, and
• People would've ceased complaining entirely about PP (for example) due to their liberal use of the "ignore" feature.

As a postscript, as I noted in another thread, complaints about person X lose 75% of their validity if person X is not on the complainer's "ignore" list.

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[_Danna]

Too right. Never underestimate the value of a good acrimonious debate.

[_harmony]

On MormonDiscussions.com, what people say they want is generally B.S. What people merely say they want is not, in reality, what they want.

This observation is again born from my deep understanding of human nature, at least how it manifests on message boards, thanks to my experience over lo these many years.

And what makes your understanding deeper than mine? I've been around message boards for years too, and I have more life experience, in that I'm older than you. By your standards, I'm older and wiser because I'm... well... older.

People clamored long and hard for an "ignore" feature, but I had the sneaking suspicion that most of them didn't really want it. People have been demanding higher-caliber discourse on this board, but I think many people are merely "high-balling" in order to make themselves look more respectable.

People. You say "People", as if that was everyone. I do not recall "clamoring" for an ignore feature.

Personally, it been my experience, lo, these many years later, that the only course available, short of a personality change is to advocate putting those who cannot behave in an adult manner in the dungeon to rot. Ignoring them is not going to help the smell of the horse manure they leave in every post they make, whether it gets read by those who ignore them or not. Somebody reads that manure and is effected in some way by it.

Confused? You have every right to be. Therefore, let's take a trip back to another time, to another message board.

Immaterial. Different time, different people, different circumstances.

In the course of some long-forgotten (except by me) discussion, beastie brought up a politics board on which she participated for a time. She mentioned that she would get frustrated, flustered, and angry about the things said there. But, to her credit, she noted that she always went back for more. Taking stock of the situation, she admitted that the adrenaline rush (or whatever it was) generated by participating there fulfilled some sort of need, anger or no anger.

Therefore, porting that lesson over to MormonDiscussions.com, what do we see? We see this: Now that people have exactly what they wanted in our new "ignore" feature, that's when they started leaving. En masse, according to harmony.

1. I didn't say "en masse". I said "another 3". If you can't figure out what I mean, don't attempt to paraphrase me, Shades.

2. I doubt the ignore feature will help the problem, since it addresses only the periphery. The problem is the caliber of the posters we've lost and the quality of the discussion they took with them. It's not the PP's of the world who leave; it's the guy sagers. And we're out of balance, too heavily laden with smart alecky posters and not nearly enough thoughtful posters.

For some reason, even though people can finally ignore the other people they don't like, now is the time they choose to jump ship. This can only be because their needs are no longer being met. Ergo, they subconsciously want to see Jerry Springer-style knock-down, drag-out fights. They want to see posts generated by folks like PP, etc. Why? Probably because such posts provide that addictive adrenaline rush born through the anger generated by seeing them.

You're on the wrong track, Shades. I suspect it comforts you to think as you do, because actually admitting there is a problem means you'd have to change. Blaming someone else is so much easier. Get out the ammunition and start shooting the messenger instead of addressing the problem.

Therefore, in summary, I have a (very) sneaking suspicion that many of the calls for higher-level discourse are merely subconscious attempts to appear high-brow to the rest of the crowd.

I'm a farmgirl, Shades. It don't get no lower than that.

Were this not so,

• The Celestial Forum would be the most heavily-populated forum, not the Terrestrial Forum, and
• People would've ceased complaining entirely about PP (for example) due to their liberal use of the "ignore" feature.

Let's see... you're saying ignorance is bliss, knowledge is overrated, civil discourse is unnecessary, and self control and personal responsibility are unattainable for people like PP?

You don't have a great deal of faith in humanity, do you, Shades?

The CK will never be the most popular forum, because there are things related to the LDS church which cannot be discussed there. If you simply change the rules to reflect no personal attacks in Terrestial, your problem is solved. PP would have to either find a civil way to say what he wants to say or be sent to his room. A8 would have to cease his comments related to female genatilia or be sent to his room. It wouldn't take long to raise the level of discourse.

You act like it would take an act of God... or Congress. It's a simple change, Shades. Your stubbornness is misplaced and you're attacking the wrong person.

As a postscript, as I noted in another thread, complaints about person X lose 75% of their validity if person X is not on the complainer's "ignore" list.

You have no way of knowing who is on my Ignore list, Shades. So don't make assumptions and generalizations about something you have no way of knowing.

The personal attack that is posted by an Ignored individual still stings the rest of the board who read it. And it has the added advantage of allowing the ignored individual free reign without direct consequences. Ignoring doesn't shut the person up, doesn't make them accountable for their words, doesn't mute them, doesn't teach them anything. Instead, it's like a community ignoring the gang problem. The problem doesn't go away; the graffiti doesn't get erased; the violence doesn't get punished. It just escalates, because there are no consequences for actions that are not in the best interest of the community.

I realize that I'm spitting in the wind here. You're advocating ignoring MDB's gang problem, and by ignoring them, you're supporting them. Three of my friends have now moved from this community, rather than continue to deal with the gang problem. I'm still here, and I'm still advocating for change, because I'm not ready to dust MDB off my feet yet.

[_Mister Scratch]

Here's my question: Who are the 3 individuals who supposedly "left"? Runtu? Moniker? Ray A? Jersey? Beastie?

[_Dr. Shades]

And what makes your understanding deeper than mine? I've been around message boards for years too, and I have more life experience, in that I'm older than you. By your standards, I'm older and wiser because I'm... well... older.

You of course have more experience at the game of life, but I think my experience with message boards compares quite favorably. Especially when it comes to that which takes place behind-the-scenes from an administrator's standpoint.

People. You say "People", as if that was everyone. I do not recall "clamoring" for an ignore feature.

You're right; you didn't. But were any of those people your list the same ones who got precisely what they wanted and then left anyway?

Personally, it been my experience, lo, these many years later, that the only course available, short of a personality change is to advocate putting those who cannot behave in an adult manner in the dungeon to rot. Ignoring them is not going to help the smell of the horse manure they leave in every post they make, whether it gets read by those who ignore them or not.

This is where I'm afraid I must disagree with you. I honestly can't see how person X can possibly affect person Y when person Y hasn't even read person X's "horse manure." Sure, person Y may inadvertently see person X's post when person Z quotes it, but methinks the problem is nevertheless 75% (or more) solved.

Somebody reads that manure and is effected in some way by it.

True, but the somebody who reads it is also somebody who actually wants to read it due to his/her failure to put that person on his/her ignore list.

Immaterial. Different time, different people, different circumstances.

Oh, I think the human principle is the same. People enjoy the adrenaline rush that comes from having their hackles raised by a pot-stirrer.

1. I didn't say "en masse". I said "another 3". If you can't figure out what I mean, don't attempt to paraphrase me, Shades.

Sure, "another 3" doesn't count as "en masse," but the long list you posted probably does.

2. I doubt the ignore feature will help the problem, since it addresses only the periphery. The problem is the caliber of the posters we've lost and the quality of the discussion they took with them.

Yes, but the posters shouldn't've been lost thanks to the handy-dandy ignore feature which strips away at least 75% of their complaints.

It's not the PP's of the world who leave; it's the guy sagers. And we're out of balance, too heavily laden with smart alecky posters and not nearly enough thoughtful posters.

I can't create thoughtful posters out of thin air, but methinks the thoughtful posters no longer have any reason to leave thanks to the ignore feature.

You're on the wrong track, Shades. I suspect it comforts you to think as you do, because actually admitting there is a problem means you'd have to change. Blaming someone else is so much easier. Get out the ammunition and start shooting the messenger instead of addressing the problem.

Well, I'm simply giving you my side. I'll admit that I'm more than a little confused how people can still get disgusted at the same rate as before (assuming that's what's actually happening) even after the ignore feature is now online.

Let's see... you're saying ignorance is bliss, knowledge is overrated, civil discourse is unnecessary, and self control and personal responsibility are unattainable for people like PP?

No, I'm saying that the ignore feature in theory should solve any and all problems with the above.

You don't have a great deal of faith in humanity, do you, Shades?

I have absolutely no faith in humanity at all. None whatsoever. How anyone in this day and age can retain any is utterly beyond me.

If you simply change the rules to reflect no personal attacks in Terrestial, your problem is solved. PP would have to either find a civil way to say what he wants to say or be sent to his room.

Have you seen the discussion that marg and I are having elsewhere? In brief, I maintain that what you and I consider a personal attack is NEVER what the poster him/herself considers a personal attack. Ergo, moving such posts opens a Pandora's Box of headaches for me and my hapless moderators.

A8 would have to cease his comments related to female genatilia or be sent to his room. It wouldn't take long to raise the level of discourse.

A8's comments related to female genitalia are already shuttled off to their appropriate forums.

You act like it would take an act of God... or Congress. It's a simple change, Shades. Your stubbornness is misplaced and you're attacking the wrong person.

As I also noted to marg, you're right, it's a simple change that could easily be implemented. But it's a change that has to be balanced against another consideration: Do I really feel like dealing with the maelstrom of complaints that would ensue once people's posts start getting moved? Do I really want to open those floodgates?

You have no way of knowing who is on my Ignore list, Shades. So don't make assumptions and generalizations about something you have no way of knowing.

You're again right, but I'm not referring to you specifically. Did all those people on your list make proper use of the ignore feature before departing?

The personal attack that is posted by an Ignored individual still stings the rest of the board who read it.

Yes, but it only stings them by their own free will and choice. Everybody wins.

And it has the added advantage of allowing the ignored individual free reign without direct consequences.

Not necessarily; the consequence is that they will be added to more people's ignore lists.

Ignoring doesn't shut the person up, doesn't make them accountable for their words, doesn't mute them, doesn't teach them anything.

It's not them we're worried about. We're worried about stemming the tide of departees--at least, that's what I thought you were concerned with.

Instead, it's like a community ignoring the gang problem. The problem doesn't go away; the graffiti doesn't get erased; the violence doesn't get punished. It just escalates, because there are no consequences for actions that are not in the best interest of the community.

Getting placed on ignore lists are the consequences.

I realize that I'm spitting in the wind here. You're advocating ignoring MDB's gang problem, and by ignoring them, you're supporting them. Three of my friends have now moved from this community, rather than continue to deal with the gang problem.

They wouldn't have needed to move from the community if they'd merely made use of the ignore feature. Take a look at their laundry-list of complaints; I bet 75%+ of them would've been automatically solved had they used the ignore feature.

I'm still here, and I'm still advocating for change, because I'm not ready to dust MDB off my feet yet.

Thank you for that. Yours is the correct approach.

How about this, though: Rather than me continuing to be pig-headed, why not give the people what they want? If you believe that moving posts to different forums is the proper direction to take--rather than the liberal (yet judicious) use of the ignore feature--are you willing to become a moderator, move the posts yourself, and deal with the complaints you'll inevitably get for your (rightful) actions?

[_harmony]

Personally, it been my experience, lo, these many years later, that the only course available, short of a personality change is to advocate putting those who cannot behave in an adult manner in the dungeon to rot. Ignoring them is not going to help the smell of the horse manure they leave in every post they make, whether it gets read by those who ignore them or not.

This is where I'm afraid I must disagree with you. I honestly can't see how person X can possibly affect person Y when person Y hasn't even read person X's "horse manure." Sure, person Y may inadvertently see person X's post when person Z quotes it, but methinks the problem is nevertheless 75% (or more) solved.

Then your understanding of human nature isn't as sharp as it could be.

That which is ignored harms not just the target, but the community as well. Surely with your experience in corrections, you know this, especially as it pertains to gang behavior. Much of the anti-community piles of horse manure that PP and a few others leave would translate to gang behavior in the real world.

Crowing about someone being "pwned" is gang-like behavior, Shades, akin to marking territory with graffiti. It's about controlling those over whom one is not entitled to control. It's certainly not conducive to civil discussion or even argument. That sort of behavior harms the community as much as the individual. Ignoring it only exacerbates the problem, just as gang behavior in the real world grows exponentially when the community ignores it.

Somebody reads that manure and is effected in some way by it.

True, but the somebody who reads it is also somebody who actually wants to read it due to his/her failure to put that person on his/her ignore list.

And the community suffers from the exposure. A little self control isn't too much to expect, Shades.

I can't create thoughtful posters out of thin air, but methinks the thoughtful posters no longer have any reason to leave thanks to the ignore feature.

But you can create an environment that would be civil, instead of hostile, a community that doesn't ignore it's problems, but addresses them as they arise.

Well, I'm simply giving you my side. I'll admit that I'm more than a little confused how people can still get disgusted at the same rate as before (assuming that's what's actually happening) even after the ignore feature is now online.

Because the ignore feature only masks the problem. And an ignored problem only grows, it doesn't go away. No solution ever happened for a masked problem. Facing the problem is the only way to solve it.

If you simply change the rules to reflect no personal attacks in Terrestial, your problem is solved. PP would have to either find a civil way to say what he wants to say or be sent to his room.

Have you seen the discussion that marg and I are having elsewhere? In brief, I maintain that what you and I consider a personal attack is NEVER what the poster him/herself considers a personal attack. Ergo, moving such posts opens a Pandora's Box of headaches for me and my hapless moderators.

I beg to differ, Shades. PP knows he's offensive for 99% of his posts. He knows! You allow a bully wannabe gangbanger free access to this site, and then you wonder why people can't just ignore him... why they leave? C'mon, Shades. You're smarter than that.

The personal attack that is posted by an Ignored individual still stings the rest of the board who read it.

Yes, but it only stings them by their own free will and choice. Everybody wins.

Nobody wins, except those who leave their piles of steaming horse manure on whatever thread they occupy. And the list is getting longer of those who simply decide the utility isn't worth the cost.

And it has the added advantage of allowing the ignored individual free reign without direct consequences.

Not necessarily; the consequence is that they will be added to more people's ignore lists.

Big deal.

Getting placed on ignore lists are the consequences.

Tell that to principals dealing with gangs at school. Tell that to police dealing with gangs in the community. Tell that to those who have left our community because of unacceptable uncivil piles of horse manure.

[_Dr. Shades]

Well harmony, it appears as though we're in a deadlock. I believe that the only way to resolve this issue is by test driving your ideas. (My ideas have been test-driven for a couple of years now; if people are leaving, then perhaps it's time to see if there's indeed a better way.)

More details to follow in another thread.

[_Mercury]

Howard Stern proved that people like to hear opinions they disagree with., When I was uber-mornon I ate up discussion of the "supposed flaws in Mormonism".

People like it when they hear dissenting opinions. Complicating this reality is the fact that most Mormons who participate on sites such as this are secretly using it as a subconscious validation system for their doubts.

[_harmony]

Howard Stern proved that people like to hear opinions they disagree with., When I was uber-mornon I ate up discussion of the "supposed flaws in Mormonism".

People like it when they hear dissenting opinions. Complicating this reality is the fact that most Mormons who participate on sites such as this are secretly using it as a subconscious validation system for their doubts.

"Dissenting opinions" are great. It's entirely possible to have "dissenting opinions" without having vicious personal attacks.

[_solomarineris]

I realize that I'm spitting in the wind here. You're advocating ignoring MDB's gang problem, and by ignoring them, you're supporting them. Three of my friends have now moved from this community, rather than continue to deal with the gang problem. I'm still here, and I'm still advocating for change, because I'm not ready to dust MDB off my feet yet.

Harmony, darling.....
If you presume the planet revolves around your feelings it is too late for you to understand reality now.
Insulting, offending, abrasiveness & many other human traits come with this territory.
The reason, why I am writing is this;
People, you mention, who left this and other boards similar, have almost the same traits; either they are offended or the
"Kitchen" gets too hot. People like DCP, Tal Bachman. DCP usually wears his Iron Man indestructible helmet and when it is cracked by people like Mr. Scratch, he runs away, deep down he is a bankrupt coward because he has no leg to stand whatever he claims to be "true". Tal Bachman, OTOH, acts like a wounded pussy, few years back he was the darling of RFM (one of my favorite sites). He just couldn't stand the heat and left.
With your perspective, I suspect there will always be Terminal Bleeding.
For the rest of your life you will trade one site with other, none will please you eventually.

The only way you are going to control the environment is creating your own site and butchering any post you'd like, as MAD&b's modus operendi is.