A Fundamental Difference

[_silentkid]

During my participation on this board, I have witnessed and participated in many discussions about the existence or non-existence of god, threads peppered with words like idiot and moron. I recently had an interesting exchange with Wheat on this thread. It pointed out to me what I think is a fundamental difference between believers and non-believers.

Atheists and apostates often mock the beliefs of believers, while many believers look forward to the time that atheists and apostates will suffer extreme physical anguish at the hands of their angry god. My question and the topic of this discussion is, which is worse (if either): making fun of someone's beliefs or enjoying the thought that those who make fun of your beliefs will be set on fire, while alive, so that their flesh melts off of their bones while their eyes are gouged out and their innards are spilled on the ground. (I love horror movies, so these images are not foreign to me).

I understand that this is a generalization, that not all believers wish bodily harm from an angry god on apostates. However, the justification for this belief is found in the holy Bible and the words of the prophets, as Wheat so eloquently points out in the other thread. Do any of the resident atheists here anxiously await the suffering of believers in any way? I may call into question the logic of your beliefs, I may even make fun of them, but I'll never entertain any silly notion of your pain and death.

[_asbestosman]

Hmm, I'm not sure which is worse. Hoping that people will experience excuricating pain doesn't seem particularly noble (unless those people are mass murderers or something). Yet making fun of someone can cause actual real pain to them wheras only hoping someone suffers pain just seems creepy.

[_Ray A]

I'm not atheist, but my God is apparently in liberal apostasy. So I fear no retribution.

But here's something from "Grace Gems", whose purpose is to:

To humble the pride of man,
to exalt the grace of God in salvation
and to promote real holiness in heart and life.

You need to read this to understand the underlying violent nature of Christianity, something which scholars like John Dominic Crossan (he is a Christian, but very much to the liberal end of the scale) have fought so hard to try to eliminate. Basically ideas like the Jews "deserved what they got", or that it was their "divine destiny" to suffer for "killing the son of god".

The wrath of God let loose upon His Son!

(Winslow, "The God of Holiness")

Divine holiness is best exhibited in the cross of Jesus.

Not hell itself, dreadful and eternal as is its suffering:
the undying worm, the unquenchable fire, the smoke
of the torment that goes up forever and ever; affords
such a solemn and impressive spectacle of the
holiness and justice of God in the punishment of
sin, as is presented in the death of God's beloved Son.

An eminent Puritan writer thus strikingly puts it:
"Not all the vials of judgment that have or shall be
poured out upon this wicked world, nor the flaming
furnace of a sinner's conscience, nor the irrevocable
sentence pronounced against the rebellious devils,
nor the groans of the damned creatures, give such
a demonstration of God's hatred of sin, as the
wrath of God let loose upon His Son!"

Never did Divine holiness appear more beautiful
and lovely than at the time our Savior's countenance
was most marred in the midst of His dying groans.

This Himself acknowledges in that penitential psalm,
when God turned His smiling face away from Him, and
thrust His sharp knife into His heart, which forced
that terrible cry from Him, "My God, my God, why
have You forsaken me? Why are You so far from
saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?
...Yet You are enthroned as the Holy One." Ps. 22:1-2

Such an impressive view of God's holiness the angels
in heaven never before beheld; not even when they
saw the non elect spirits hurled from the heights of
glory down to the bottomless pit, to be reserved in
chains of darkness and woe forever!

Jesus was the innocent One dying for the guilty
ones, the holy One dying for the sinful ones.

Divine justice, in its mission of judgment, as it
swept by the cross, found the Son of God impaled
upon its wood beneath the sins and the curse of
His people. Upon Him its judgment fell, on His soul
its wrath was poured, in His heart its flaming sword
was plunged; and thus, from Him, justice exacted
the full penalty of man's transgression; the last
farthing of the great debt.

Go to the cross, then, my reader, and learn the holiness of God.

Contemplate...
the dignity of Christ;
His preciousness to His Father's heart;
the sinlessness of His nature.

And then behold...
the sorrow of His soul,
the torture of His body,
the tragedy of His death,
the abasement,
the ignominy,
the humiliation, into the fathomless
depths of which the whole transaction
plunged our incarnate God!

And let me ask, standing, as you are, before
this unparalleled spectacle, "Can you cherish
low views of God's holiness, or light views
of your own sinfulness?"

Yes, reader, learn all about "the Holiness of God".

[_Some Schmo]

Do any of the resident atheists here anxiously await the suffering of believers in any way? I may call into question the logic of your beliefs, I may even make fun of them, but I'll never entertain any silly notion of your pain and death.

What's there to wait for? I think they suffer right now and aren't even aware of it. They have no idea of the real world they're missing.

Sometimes, when I witness the anguish one of my still-believing siblings is going through, and I understand it's a direct result of one faulty belief or another, it makes me feel helpless knowing there's no way to convince them that it's the crappy belief about a situation causing the pain, not the situation itself. Situations are neutral. Outlook, perception, and reaction are everything.

I truly pity the kind ones. It's the dicks that are easy to point at and laugh.

[_GoodK]

Well said, SK. I agree, it's much worse - sadistic and intolerant - than laughing at a genuinely weird devotion to fairy tales. I also feel bad for the kind ones.

Posters like Wheat remind me of how far we haven't come as a civilization. It's even more depressing to think that people are really like that, he is not just a fanatic. It's cruelness and bigotry pandering to ignorance and insecurity. .

[_asbestosman]

Well said, SK. I agree, it's much worse - sadistic and intolerant - than laughing at a genuinely weird devotion to fairy tales.

You're right that it's more sadistic and intolerant, but does it cause more human suffering than ridicule?

[_silentkid]

Yet making fun of someone can cause actual real pain to them wheras only hoping someone suffers pain just seems creepy.

I'm talking about making fun (which I try to avoid but am sometimes guilty of) or pointing out errors or criticizing one's untestable beliefs. I think there is difference between that and making fun of the person.

...but does it cause more human suffering than ridicule?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Could you provide some examples or explain further? The only recent example I can think of off the top of my head is the Danish cartoon/Islamic response, but the suffering that event caused falls at the feet of the religious extremists, in my opinion. Do we need to restrict free speech to prevent the criticism of religious ideas so we don't cause people pain? Are people so wedded to their religious ideas that any criticism causes them to suffer. Human suffering? Really? I'm not talking about religious intolerance here; I'm talking about criticism.

[_CaliforniaKid]

I'm not atheist, but my God is apparently in liberal apostasy. So I fear no retribution.

lol!!!!

[_asbestosman]

I'm talking about making fun (which I try to avoid but am sometimes guilty of) or pointing out errors or criticizing one's untestable beliefs. I think there is difference between that and making fun of the person.

Yes, there is a difference, but it tends to be lost on people who have their deeply-held beliefs mocked. I think one can criticize those beliefs without resorting to mockery.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Could you provide some examples or explain further? The only recent example I can think of off the top of my head is the Danish cartoon/Islamic response, but the suffering that event caused falls at the feet of the religious extremists, in my opinion. Do we need to restrict free speech to prevent the criticism of religious ideas so we don't cause people pain? Are people so wedded to their religious ideas that any criticism causes them to suffer. Human suffering? Really? I'm not talking about religious intolerance here; I'm talking about criticism.

Like I said, I think one can criticize beliefs without ridiculing them. I think the Danish cartoonist did cross the line into ridicule, but I don't think that should have been restricted by law. Then again, I think hateful speech should be legal as long as it doesn't pose a danger of starting riots and it doesn't become harasment. The mental anguish isn't enough to make it illegal in my opinion. Walk away and ignore it, or live with your tears. I had to learn to do that in grade school and I expect adults should learn to do the same.

No, I have in mind ridiculing of beliefs. Take for example the belief that we are literal spirit children of our Heavenly Father. I occasionally see comments ridiculing the notion of Divine procreation. I'm not saying that mockery should be illegal, but I do think it's unnecessary and unhelpful. Potential problems with Divine procreation can be discussed without outright mockery. One can talk about questions of why our inefficient process on earth should be carried over into the afterlife. For example, humans produce far more gametes than they can ever use.

Another form of mockery I think is silly is mocking the temple. I don't think it should be illegal, but I do think it hurts. I also fail to see any noble purpose behind it. Does mockery somehow provide enlightenment? I can see how criticism might, but mockery seems ineffective and far from noble though perhaps not as far as wishing for one's enemies to experience pain. I just happen to think that mockery causes more human suffering than saddistic wishes (without actions).