I wish it were true...

[_GoodK]

At times like this I wish the church was true. Do you ever feel that way?

[_Sethbag]

At times like what? What's going on right now that makes you feel that way more than at other times?

[_The Nehor]

At times like what? What's going on right now that makes you feel that way more than at other times?

Sobriety?

[_GoodK]

At times like what? What's going on right now that makes you feel that way more than at other times?

I feel this way from time to time. It's like Swiss nostalgia.

The social cushion of the church is enticing...

[_Danna]

swiss nostalgia?

[_Sethbag]

I can see the draw for you, but I'm not sure I see it quite that way myself, Goodk. As an example, when I recently went to the fireside where DCP spoke about Mormonism and Islam, he basically filled a chapel at the LDS Institute building on the ASU campus. It was filled with smiling people, greeting each other, who were all there to hear from one of the champions of Mormonism.

I could see how the people in that room all had feelings of cameraderie, and solidarity, as they all believed they were there as fellow members of the Good Guys team.

Obviously, I saw it differently. I saw it as a group of people all mesmerized by the same fundamental fallacy. While the evening was pleasant, even for me as an unbeliever, and quadruply so for those convinced that they're on the Good Guys team, I cannot see how this pleasantness should make me wish that the whole thing were true. Sure, they had a pleasant fireside. Ok. Is it worth the cost? Do I wish Mormonism were really true just so I could enjoy pleasant firesides?

Should I wish the government were really out to get me, just so that I could enjoy the company of fellow conspiracy theorists? I don't think it's worth it.

If Mormonism were in fact really true, then Elohim would have to be a real jackass.

He'd be a jackass for wiping out all those people in the Old Testament, and letting the Bible be written in such a way that an educated person simply cannot take it seriously, thus creating a stumbling block for those honestly endeavoring to cultivate and utilize their intellects.

He'd have to be a jackass for the way in which he got Joseph Smith to screw around with all those dozens of women behind Emma's back, so that it looks to us like Joseph was a philandering asshole, thus placing before us another stumbling block, making it hard to believe in Joseph Smith as a real man of God, at least not without having to twist our minds around like pretzels justifying him.

He'd have to be a jackass for letting the Book of Abraham come out in such a farcical way, such that a person taking the evidence, and their own intellect, seriously, simply cannot believe it.

In other words, in order for Mormonism to be true, I have to accept that God is a "petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak. A vindictive, blood-thirsty ethnic cleanser. A misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, philocidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously
malevolant bully.", to quote Richard Dawkins.

I don't wish that such a God were real. Sure, it's tempting to wish I could go be a God some day, rule my own universe, have sex into all eternity with my wife (and possibly with many more wives), see my offspring grow infinitely, etc. Yeah, that's quite some carrot. But it's a pipe dream, and there's way too much baggage along with that carrot.

[_sunstoned]

If Mormonism were in fact really true, then Elohim would have to be a real jackass.

QFT. Sig worthy.

[_antishock8]

Eh? No.

Mormon theology, throughout its various manifestations is vile. Taking girls for wives under a mandate? Black people being the seed of Cain? And now homosexuals are the target of their bigotry.

So. No. I would never hope for that. To hope Mormonism is true is to hope everything you see in the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, PofG, and various prophetic utterings are true.... And no. It's not good. It's the opposite of good. It's evil.

[_harmony]

At times like this I wish the church was true. Do you ever feel that way?

I've been mulling this for the last little while too, GoodK. And here's what I've concluded, my own personal articles of faith, as it were:

1. I believe in God, by whatever name the individual uses. On many more than one occasion in my life I have felt and heard his voice, so I have no doubt of his existence or his benevolence. Just as I know people write and believe mean and vicious things about me, and I can't do a thing about it, I think people write and believe vile and malicious things about God. And while he probably could do something about it, he doesn't, because he's got a pretty hand's-off policy in dealing with his creations.

2. Whatever calamities, hard times, bad karma, etc. that happens to us in our lives are brought about by us. If not us personally through our choices, then us collectively through other people's bad choices that result in bad things for us. God doesn't cause bad things to happen to us; God also doesn't cause good things to happen to us. We don't find our keys because of God. We find our keys because we looked in the right place. And although I think there are miracles that happen (I've seen one myself), I think they are rare. Weather happens; either deal with it or live somewhere else. No one whines about the beautiful weather in the tropics until a hurricane drops in.

3. Developing a personal relationship with God doesn't require that I believe everything or even most of what we call the scriptures say about him. Those were all written with an agenda that was in the mind of the writer, and can't logically be attributed to anyone else, including God.

4. About Joseph Smith. I believe he probably was a prophet, right up until his ego got the better of him and he started confusing what he wanted with what God wanted. I don't believe the Book of Mormon is a historical account of an actual people, any more than I believe the Bible is a historical account of actual people. I don't think there were ever any gold plates, any visitations, any revelations. I think Joseph did what God wanted him to do when Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon and that, for the most part, it's an inspired book. I believe that what Joseph restored was the sense of community that had been lost over the centuries. But that's the extent of his restoration. And I think that sense of community is one of the few things that still exists from Joseph's church. All the "authority", the "ceremonies", the "obedience to the prophet"... that's all Joseph. Just as God didn't have anything to do with slaughtering people left and right in the Old Testament, he didn't have anything to do with Joseph's unbridled ego. However, I believe that God got fed up with Joseph because of his excesses and withdrew his influence, which had the end result of Joseph's death. I don't consider that a martyrdom; I consider that Joseph's stupidity finally catching up with him.

5. The LDS church is true, in the sense that it still maintains the original sense of community of Christ. It's not true in just about everything else. The culture that evolved due to Brigham's influence and the later influence of Joseph Fielding Smith is where things get really sideways. There are many good men who tried desperately to lead, but a great deal of what they tried to accomplish is overridden still by men with no inspiration, like Packer. The lack of inspiration that resulted in men like BKP being called as a general authority is one of the things that shows most glaringly that there is no special authority, no special relationship needed to lead this church; all that's needed is the right bloodline and who knows you and who you brownnose.

There was no specialness about the men who started the church. The witnesses were not special, the leaders were not special. They were simply people that Joseph happened to know. Much like callings are given out today. And it helped that they were gullible and could keep a secret.

Maybe more later. I've got to get ready for work.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I agree with a lot of what harmony wrote, so I'll just note where because she says it much better than I can:

1. I believe in God, by whatever name the individual uses. On many more than one occasion in my life I have felt and heard his voice, so I have no doubt of his existence or his benevolence.

I feel the same way.

And while he probably could do something about it, he doesn't, because he's got a pretty hand's-off policy in dealing with his creations.

This is spot-on for me. I think God gets way too much credit and blame for an awful lot. I think His default position is to leave us to our own devises.

2. Whatever calamities, hard times, bad karma, etc. that happens to us in our lives are brought about by us. If not us personally through our choices, then us collectively through other people's bad choices that result in bad things for us. God doesn't cause bad things to happen to us; God also doesn't cause good things to happen to us.

Agree 100%.

3. Developing a personal relationship with God doesn't require that I believe everything or even most of what we call the scriptures say about him. Those were all written with an agenda that was in the mind of the writer, and can't logically be attributed to anyone else, including God.

Yup. I, too, refuse to abdicate my right to go directly to God over to some middle-man leader, writer, etc.

4. About Joseph Smith. I believe he probably was a prophet, right up until his ego got the better of him and he started confusing what he wanted with what God wanted.

Me, too. I think Joseph was called by God, but like with the rest of us, I think God left Joseph to screw up on his own, and he did.

I don't believe the Book of Mormon is a historical account of an actual people, any more than I believe the Bible is a historical account of actual people. I don't think there were ever any gold plates, any visitations, any revelations.

I'm on the fence on this one. I see both sides, and just don't favor one way or the other.

I don't consider that a martyrdom; I consider that Joseph's stupidity finally catching up with him.

I agree. His death, albeit illegal and abhorrent, was brought on by his own hubris.

5. The LDS church is true, in the sense that it still maintains the original sense of community of Christ. It's not true in just about everything else.

Agreed!

The culture that evolved due to Brigham's influence and the later influence of Joseph Fielding Smith is where things get really sideways. There are many good men who tried desperately to lead, but a great deal of what they tried to accomplish is overridden still by men with no inspiration, like Packer. The lack of inspiration that resulted in men like BKP being called as a general authority is one of the things that shows most glaringly that there is no special authority, no special relationship needed to lead this church; all that's needed is the right bloodline and who knows you and who you brownnose.

Much of what the Church is today (the traditions, culture, rituals, etc.) are man-made, in my opinion. Perhaps they thought they were inspired of God, but I think the leaders were mistaken and much of the Church institution took on a life of its own (the priesthood ban is a good example).