damned if you do, damned if you don't... (about prop 8)

[_rcrocket]

I did not know sexual preference qualified someone as a minority. So does religious preference qualify me as a minority too?

The correct jargon is "protected class."

Sexual preference is not a constitutionally protected class anywhere except California, and there only under the state constitution, and only since May 2008. (I don't know, however, about the constitutional status of sexual preference in Mass. or Vt., having not looked at them.)

There are some states, including California, which have long had statutes (not constitutions) prohibiting discrimination against gays in commercial settings.

[_Seven]

Ok, so Smac is over on MAD posting every situation he can find where gays are "outing" Mormons in various businesses who are being pressured in their jobs, and resigning over it.

I'm not really sure what to think of this situation, but there is a certain whiff of witch hunting about it. I must note, however, that so far, both cases Smac has brought up, were people in California who happen to work in industries just loaded with gay people (the arts), and these people donated over $1000 to the Yes on 8 fund. Just what in the hell did they think all the gays who patronize and work with their businesses think was going to happen? Sounds kinda like going into Harlem and waving around the Confederate Flag while wrapped in a sheet.

Then we have the situation of Andrew Callahan, who has apparently been threatened with excommunication over his public opposition to Prop 8.

So, two Mormons who donated to Yes on 8 have been hounded from their jobs, and the Mormon Church is looking at excommunicating a High Priest who publicly denounced Prop 8.

Sounds to me like damned if you do (support 8), damned if you don't (support 8).

I brought these same points to my TBM "Yes on 8" family when they were outraged over the blacklist. If the church is excommunicating people who openly spoke against Prop 8, they are hypocrites for complaining.

Although I don't equate the homosexual marriage issue to blacks, I have tried to imagine it from that perspective. If I knew a business I supported or donated to was racist and actively opposing equal rights for blacks, I would withdraw my support and encourage my family to. I'm not supporting a witch hunt for Prop 8 donors, but I don't feel it is wrong for individuals to withdraw financial support of those who oppose gay marriage. It is well within their rights to do so. "Yes on 8" donors are free to not support products or businesses of those people who are pushing for gay marriage.

In my life I have avoided purchasing products from farms that abuse animals, or hair products I loved when I found the sexual marketing out of line, etc. What better way to use our voice in a peaceful manner than to withdraw support from products/businesses that we believe violates issues we are passionate about? Prophets have encouraged members to support grocery stores and other businesses that honor the Sabbath over the others.

[_rcrocket]

I brought these same points to my TBM "Yes on 8" family when they were outraged over the blacklist. If the church is excommunicating people who openly spoke against Prop 8, they are hypocrites for complaining.

Although I don't equate the homosexual marriage issue to blacks, I have tried to imagine it from that perspective. If I knew a business I supported or donated to was racist and actively opposing equal rights for blacks, I would withdraw my support and encourage my family to. I'm not supporting a witch hunt for Prop 8 donors, but I don't feel it is wrong for individuals to withdraw financial support of those who oppose gay marriage. It is well within their rights to do so. "Yes on 8" donors are free to not support products or businesses of those people who are pushing for gay marriage.

In my life I have avoided purchasing products from farms that abuse animals, or hair products I loved when I found the sexual marketing out of line, etc. What better way to use our voice in a peaceful manner than to withdraw support from products/businesses that we believe violates issues we are passionate about? Prophets have encouraged members to support grocery stores and other businesses that honor the Sabbath over the others.

You certainly understate the problem.

At least from my experience, having been a $5000+ contributor, the blacklist is being used to (1) fill phonemail with anonymous hate-filled vulgarities, (2) write anonymous letters filled with hate and vulgarities to the homes of contributors, (3) write letters to employers demanding termination of the employed contributor, and (4) engage in general business boycotting where often the only "wrong" was that an employee did the contributing. Remember that the blacklist was assembled using private information. Nadine Hansen's website asked its readers to squeal on those contributors to Prop 8 who were Mormons, and when that squealing occurred, the information became public. (I have elsewhere documented that had a government agency done that, it would have been a violation of the First Amendment. One wonders about government servers and email accounts that might have been used for that purpose by government employees.)

Now, by virtue of the First Amendment, there is nothing "illegal" about any of this except some of the private contacts might constitute personal harassment. Whether it is "right" or "wrong" is a matter of personal preference. If you hate Mormons, there is nothing wrong with it.

Similarly, if you hate Jews I guess because it isn't "illegal" there's nothing wrong with railing against Jews, protesting their houses of worship, sending hate-filled vulgar letters and phonemails to their houses of worship and congregants and boycotting their businesses? I mean, "right" and "wrong" is a matter of personal preference, right? We do that to Muslims and don't feel any worse for it, right? You see nothing wrong with doing it to Mormons, as well.

But I do observe that in California, many black leaders take umbrage with the claim that the right of homosexuals to get married is a civil rights struggle similar to that of blacks. I gave a lecture to a group of UCLA students in the law school about Prop 8 before the election; the hall was 80 to 5 against the proposition. The local gay and lesbian group acknowledged the antipathy blacks had to gay marriage and found it "outrageous." One of the leaders astounded me by arguing that blacks were naturally prejudiced because of their history of being discriminated against.

Thus, there is nothing "wrong" with the blacklist and the four actions I describe above, but the blacklist is leading to "wrong" things. Interruption of religious services and violence directed at Mormons who had nothing to do with contributing money. It would be rather narrow-minded to not see the relationship between the two. Thus, you may not see anything "wrong" with the persecution of Mormons because technically most of the acts aren't illegal and because of your world-view of Mormonism. But, the Lord probably sees it otherwise, I would suspect.

Most Mormons, myself included, did not contribute to Prop 8 because we hate gays. Rather, we don't think that expanding marriage beyond a male and female relationship would be a good thing. As Elton John said publicly about his relationship with his partner: "We're not married. Let's get that right. We have a civil partnership. What is wrong with Proposition 8 is that they went for marriage. Marriage is going to put a lot of people off, the word marriage. . . . You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships."

[_TAK]

Croc:

Most Mormons, myself included, did not contribute to Prop 8 because we hate gays. Rather, we don't think that expanding marriage beyond a male and female relationship would be a good thing.

Hmm.. subsitute Black for Gay:
Most Mormons, myself included, did not contribute to Prop 8 because we hate blacks. Rather, we don't think that expanding marriage to include Whites and Blacks marrying would be a good thing.

by the way.. Most Mormons? Can you quantify that ? Prove it in any way?

[_Sethbag]

Ahh, I see. Bob gave 5000+ f*** yous to the gays, and now he's upset that they didn't take very kindly to that.

Bob, you gave at least $5000 to an effort directly aimed at voiding the 18,000+ legal marriages between gays that existed so far, and to prevent any gay couples from obtaining legal marriages in the future. You poked the gays right in the eye, to the tune of at least $5000. Just what do you expect they are going to think about that?

You can say until you're blue in the face that you don't hate gays, but you gave at least $5000 to help an effort succeed to remove rights from gay people that had been recognized by the California Supreme Court. That's an aggressive action, whether "hatred" per se is at the root of it or not.

And, frankly, I simply do not believe the protestations of people who say they don't hate gays, but whose belief system and worldview portray gay people as performers of abominations, second only to murder, which have the potential to tear down the entire United States of America, and bring down fiery destruction on the whole country, like what you believe Jehovah did to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Deny this if you dare. I have argued this with a handfull of Mormons offline, and seen the arguments over on MADB about this, and spent over an hour arguing about this with my own bishop, and I'm convinced that the overwhelming majority of Mormons who supported Prop 102 and Prop 8, in principle at least if they weren't able to vote on them, did so out of fear of some kind of gay agenda to spread homosexuality to all people, to get all heterosexual people to "succumb" to homosexuality, and to essentially ruin the entire nation by it. These are the kinds of arguments I got from people, and you can try to couch your $5000 opposition to gay marriage in whatever terms you like, but I simply don't believe that, in your heart of hearts, you aren't afraid of gay people pulling apart the very fabric of this nation.

[_Seven]

"rcrocket"]

You certainly understate the problem.

At least from my experience, having been a $5000+ contributor, the blacklist is being used to (1) fill phonemail with anonymous hate-filled vulgarities, (2) write anonymous letters filled with hate and vulgarities to the homes of contributors, (3) write letters to employers demanding termination of the employed contributor, and (4) engage in general business boycotting where often the only "wrong" was that an employee did the contributing. Remember that the blacklist was assembled using private information. Nadine Hansen's website asked its readers to squeal on those contributors to Prop 8 who were Mormons, and when that squealing occurred, the information became public. (I have elsewhere documented that had a government agency done that, it would have been a violation of the First Amendment. One wonders about government servers and email accounts that might have been used for that purpose by government employees.)

I do NOT support the blacklist by the gay mafia and any behavior that involves violence, or bullying people into supporting a cause by outing them as "bigots" "gay haters" etc..
I do believe in the right to withdraw financial support of businesses or products that I find are in opposition to issues I am passionate about.

Thus, there is nothing "wrong" with the blacklist and the four actions I describe above, but the blacklist is leading to "wrong" things.

Excommunication of church members who oppose the leaders on issues such as this, also leads to "wrong" things and bigotry by LDS.

Interruption of religious services and violence directed at Mormons who had nothing to do with contributing money. It would be rather narrow-minded to not see the relationship between the two. Thus, you may not see anything "wrong" with the persecution of Mormons because technically most of the acts aren't illegal and because of your world-view of Mormonism. But, the Lord probably sees it otherwise, I would suspect.

Violence, bullying, and vandalism by the extremists of their group only hurts their cause and I do see something wrong with it.
I understand the relationship with the two but it works on both sides.
Church members who speak out against practices or doctrine they find violating are also victims of persecution. Look at the history of racism, polygamy, ERA, etc. in the Mormon church. Members were exd and had their characters slandered in the community for speaking their mind.
Excom. or outing of church critics leads to some very ugly consequences in Mormon culture. Hateful rumors are spread about you to friends and family, people won't allow their children to play with yours, jobs are lost, shunning from the community and family......
In 19th century Utah, they feared for their life if they left the faith.
Bigotry is alive and well in the church against those who are exd, NOMs, critics, those who speak out against the church's position on important issues. It happens on both sides.

Most Mormons, myself included, did not contribute to Prop 8 because we hate gays.

I agree but there are some bigots who supported Prop 8. People who believe gays are going to hell, that gays should be killed, etc.
I watched a video of Mormons committing violence against picketers at the LA temple. Should others judge Mormons based on these individuals?
It's unfair to judge an entire group based on the extremists. If you don't want others to judge you based on those committing violence against gays, then don't judge those who withdraw financial support of Prop 8 supporters based on the people vandalizing and bullying.

[_Seven]

Ahh, I see. Bob gave 5000+ f*** yous to the gays, and now he's upset that they didn't take very kindly to that.

Bob, you gave at least $5000 to an effort directly aimed at voiding the 18,000+ legal marriages between gays that existed so far, and to prevent any gay couples from obtaining legal marriages in the future. You poked the gays right in the eye, to the tune of at least $5000. Just what do you expect they are going to think about that?
.

It's only a matter of time before gay marriage is legal in California and Prop 8 only slowed it down. What a waste of money that could have been put to so many more important issues in the world today.

LDS should have started in their own State and cleaned up the abuse of women and children they have ignored for so long. If all the Mormons who donated to this Prop. had used the same money in fighting polygamy and helping the charities trying to stop the cycle of abuse to these women & children, imagine the real difference that would have been made.

Fighting gay marriage should be low on the list of priorities for Christians when there is world hunger, oppressed women, genitally mutilated and sexually abused children in the name of Islam, war, disease, murder/violence, etc.

[_Jason Bourne]

Yes, Mormonism is a minority religion. And if we were to pass some laws restricting religious beliefs and observances, and the Mormons were restricted in some way by the majority of non-Mormons based on differences in belief, you would certainly not argue that you'd qualify as a minority.

\

Hmmm. Sort of like what the federal government did to the LDS Church in the 19th century and did under the SC auspicies of constitutional at that.

Oh and by the way Rollo, there is a case that the SC found it constitutional to take away a right. Polygamy was marriage, the right to marry as the LDS chose as well as the right to free practice of their religion.

You seem to be using the word "minority" in a very jargonesque way. Would you mind telling me how you define "minority", such that you think it surprising that a group of people constituting maybe 3% of the population ought to count as one? That will help the discussion along.

I always equated minority to race. Blacks, Hispanics, and so on are minorities. I never tied it to sexual preference. Does this make a pedophile a protected minority?

[_Jason Bourne]

I brought these same points to my TBM "Yes on 8" family when they were outraged over the blacklist. If the church is excommunicating people who openly spoke against Prop 8, they are hypocrites for complaining.

Such cases are extremely limited and then only when the person is overly vocal about it.

[_rcrocket]

Hmm.. subsitute Black for Gay:

Blacks can get married. The substitution doesn't work. The black community, in the main and to quite a large degree, takes offense to the comparison.