SatanWasSetUp wrote:The members won't question it. If the lord wants to spend $2-4 billion on a mall project, who are we to question it? I don't pay tithing, so I don't care. Members who do pay tithing don't care, which strikes me as odd, but oh well.
You may not care but you should if you are a taxpayer.. As such taxpayers are subsidizing religions when tithing and properties forgo taxes. We all pay higher taxes to meet the needs of society.
True. What I see is church leaders taking advantage of their members, and from what I can tell, the members simply bend over and beg the church to rape them harder. I understand your point about taxes, but ultimately until the members stand up and start demanding accountability from their leaders, the church will keep doing what they're doing.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley
"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
SatanWasSetUp wrote:True. What I see is church leaders taking advantage of their members, and from what I can tell, the members simply bend over and beg the church to rape them harder. I understand your point about taxes, but ultimately until the members stand up and start demanding accountability from their leaders, the church will keep doing what they're doing.
Sadly members wont.. They will defend the actions of leaders even though they really have no idea what those actions are. Change only seems to occur in the Mormon church when there is pressure applied from the outside.
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God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it. Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010
Gadianton wrote: Did you see the point of comparison I made? The 12TH MOST EXPENSIVE MAN MADE OBJECT. If we assume the numbers are real, then something has to be terribly wrong.
Personally I object to the money spent on the mall. I objected to it when it was announced. Here and in other places I explained that even though the Church argues that tithing is not being used it does not matter because money is fungible. And all assets of the Church have their origination in some sort of donation at some point by members. I would prefer the Church use the money it has on other activities.
That said, you outrage seems to be over cost. And yes this does seem exorbitant though I wonder if you most expensive man made structures are in some sort of constant dollars. However, just because they spend a lot of money does not mean there is something illegal, under handed or inappropriate going on. This seems to be you conclusion as well as others.
Yes, I mentioned numbers. Yes he confirmed the numbers I gave, mentioned as two billion to four billion. He didn't object to mentioning four billion, so Jason, this is quite possibly worse than I and others have originally stated.
Ok. So the project is very expensive. One can argue over whether the this is a wise use of the resourced but this does not mean, as you and others imply, that there is something underhanded going on. You think that there are GA families and cronies that are benefiting financially from this. Such accusations seem to require something more than speculation. Do you have it? Can you show something that demonstrates money laundering as you accuse?
How can you be such a sucker?If you are a tithe paying member,THEY ARE SPENDING YOUR MONEY, not mine. Can you ask where your money goes
Maybe I am a sucker but I am an LDS that has argued here and elsewhere that I would like to see open books and published financial statements. It is disappointing to me that there is not more transparency. But still is there any proof here other than suspicion and innuendo that something inappropriate is going on?
If you didn't figure out by now, You never will....
Enlighten me please.
Incredible, a smart guy like you swallows this scam... there's no hope....[/quote]
Sadly members wont.. They will defend the actions of leaders even though they really have no idea what those actions are. Change only seems to occur in the Mormon church when there is pressure applied from the outside.
Well here is the problem. When members get vocal about such things they can lose their membership. One has to decide whether loudly grumbling and being vocal is worth the cost. I agree that it is not a good system. But I can tell you most members think it is quite fine that the books are closed and the are trusting the leaders to manage the tithes and offerings quite well. Whenever I have tried to discuss this with members I know they think I am off my rocker for wanting open financial data.
Jason Bourne wrote:Well here is the problem. When members get vocal about such things they can lose their membership. One has to decide whether loudly grumbling and being vocal is worth the cost. I agree that it is not a good system. But I can tell you most members think it is quite fine that the books are closed and the are trusting the leaders to manage the tithes and offerings quite well. Whenever I have tried to discuss this with members I know they think I am off my rocker for wanting open financial data.
Which is why change will occur when the outside become vocal about a billion dollar corporation hiding behind a tax exempt status. I hope the Prop8 people continue the fight.
Last edited by Maureen on Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it. Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010
Trevor wrote:Something smells about all of this... and badly. The books should be opened. The dealings transparent and accountable to the membership. I would not be at all surprised if money is lining the pockets of friends and relations of the GAs. A little disappointed, but not terribly surprised.
Was the Book of Mormon opened for the 3+8 witness ? Was it not?
Then, what is Your problem? This is the way. (& the truth & the life, copyright John 14:6)
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Which is why change will occur when the outside become vocal about a billion dollar corporation hiding behind a tax exempt status. I hope the Prop8 people continue the fight.
I do not think Prop 8 opponents will be at all successful in challenging the tax exempt status of the LDS Church. Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3) will only threaten tax exemption if a tax exempts activities to influence legislation is "Substantial." It seems the term substantial has reference to the other activities the tax exempt performs. So, the question on prop 8 is was the LDS Church's efforts a substantial part of its overall activities. You don't think there are plethora of lawyers making sure LDS Inc. does not fly fowl of these rules?
Hey Scratch, how am I doing? Substantial enough for you? How is my spelling?