Open the financial records guys

[_The Nehor]

Nope, because my obedience is to God and giving the tenth up. What happens with it might be the subject of curiosity but it has nothing to do with my obedience.

I respect your choice. I choose to hold those who lay claim to my money responsible for how they dispose of it. This includes corporations, charities, and churches. If I find that a group I give money to behaves in a way I find objectionable, then I will stop giving them my money. If a charitable organization, non-profit, or church decides to keep its books sequestered from public view, they will not get my money. Credibility and trust are earned. Financial transparency does wonders toward securing my contributions.

The difference is I don't consider the money to be mine so I don't get a say. When I say I expect God to hold the leaders accountable it's not silly talk to me. I honestly believe that misusing something God has put in your care earns you a dose of the wrath of God.

[_Trevor]

The difference is I don't consider the money to be mine so I don't get a say. When I say I expect God to hold the leaders accountable it's not silly talk to me. I honestly believe that misusing something God has put in your care earns you a dose of the wrath of God.

It's not for me to determine whether what you are doing is right for you. I think it is fine to consider the law of tithing binding on you before you even get the wealth. I simply believe that one remains responsible to see that the money is dealt with in a way that is consistent with the two great commandments. For me, it is not enough simply to say, "I hand it over to the people I believe to be God's servants and that is that."

But again, to each his own.

[_ajax18]

If God is displeased with how our leaders use the money he is perfectly capable of smiting them himself.

I respect your faith Nehor. I just find it interesting that they make sure not to leave tithing settlement up to God. God's perfectly capable of doing that Himself as well. Wouldn't that be better, since He knows more than the bishop and could judge the matter better?

It reminds me of the mission president boasting that he and his wife could easily baptize 20 people a month because of their superior faith. So why didn't he go out and do that? Well the elders told me that he had to focus on helping the missionaries, all 250 missionaries who probably couldn't have baptized 20 people a month together in that mission. What scares me even more is how firmly my friend brought into the MPs claim. It's hard for me to believe I was once that gullible. Do Church leaders live meagerly, go tracting, drive old cars? Until I see that, I'm always going to look on their demands with a certain degree of suspicion. They seem to be on their way to the Celestial kingdom without doing any of that.

[_wenglund]

I am actually speaking to a third issue--i.e. whether it is, or should be, the business of members to, on obscure online discussion boards, tell the leaders of the Church (who are likely not present on the obscure discussion boards) whether or not they should publically disclose the Church's finances.

Who cares? They should do it because it is the right thing to do, regardless of what any of us, on either side, say.

Were it "the right thing to do" (in the leaders' far more informed and broadly scoped opinion), then that is what they would have been doing. Clearly, the leaders differ in their opinion from you.

Why do the self-appointed advisors to the prophets not get that?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_The Nehor]

If God is displeased with how our leaders use the money he is perfectly capable of smiting them himself.

I respect your faith Nehor. I just find it interesting that they make sure not to leave tithing settlement up to God. God's perfectly capable of doing that Himself as well. Wouldn't that be better, since He knows more than the bishop and could judge the matter better?

It reminds me of the mission president boasting that he and his wife could easily baptize 20 people a month because of their superior faith. So why didn't he go out and do that? Well the elders told me that he had to focus on helping the missionaries, all 250 missionaries who probably couldn't have baptized 20 people a month together in that mission. What scares me even more is how firmly my friend brought into the MPs claim. It's hard for me to believe I was once that gullible. Do Church leaders live meagerly, go tracting, drive old cars? Until I see that, I'm always going to look on their demands with a certain degree of suspicion. They seem to be on their way to the Celestial kingdom without doing any of that.

Tithing Settlement is not for the Bishop or primarily for the records of the Church. When my father was a Bishop I remember him saying that if they could dispense with it he wouldn't mind at all. It's for the members. Why? I'm not entirely sure but my guess is that it provides a formal chance to figure out how we're doing with God.

If I was called to do it personally on my own time I doubt I'd worry about it too much or even do it at all. However, I have to get dressed up and go to a building and sit down with someone and have an answer for how I did. If I were as faithful as I wish I was this would be a minor thing as in theory I should be reporting seriously to a higher authority every day. As I do this haphazardly one formal report doesn't hurt.

I'll be honest. When I sit down with my Bishop for an interview I want a REAL interview. I want to discuss my spiritual state and get some inspired advice. I want him to see through some of the facade I subconciously put up and tell me the things I don't want to hear but need to hear. Privacy and a Bishop worried about offending me are things I don't want in my interview.

[_ajax18]

I doubt many local leaders enjoy doing tithing settlement either. They have nothing to gain from it. However mission presidents and general authorities seem to live very well and noobdy really knows just how much of that is funded by members who live much worse.

Part of the beauty of Christianity to me was a God/leader who saw nothing as beneath him as far as work or suffering. Why is Jesus exalted in the afterlife? I can't help but think He earned everything He got. Unfortunately many other aspects of modern day Christianity aren't nearly as reciprocal or fair and just don't measure up to the way Jesus Christ lived.

[_Jason Bourne]

The Church is my church and yours as members.

True--just as BYU is my alama mater

No I don't see this as the same.

and Fidelity Investments used to be my company.

Not at all. You just hire them to manage money. Which I imagine you had access to financial information before you did so.

It is just that I don't view it as my role to tell the leaders of those respective institution what to do with THEIR finances,

Really. You are just fine with Fidelity doing whatever they want with your the money you invest as well as the way they handle business? You never looked at a prospectus or company financials or at least were glad you could if you wished?

including in terms of public disclosure. That is their business, not mine. My role as a member is to be a good member.

No it is not. It is your business at least as far as Fidelity goes. It is similar for the Church. We are asked to give a substantial amount of time and money. LDS leaders, who are merely mortal manages these assets and have a fiduciary responsibility for those assets just as the money managers at Fidelity.

Does that mean that I or others can't harbor an opinion about how the finances may best be handled publically? Not at all. We are free to formulate opinions on whatever issue we want, and to voice those opinions whereever and whenever we see fit--heightened concerns about "dissent" notwithstanding.

Really? How can you form an opinion about something you have no data about?

To me, though, I find it works best to focus more on fulfilling my role as a member and formulating and voicing opinions in relation thereto.

Yes yes you are perfectly wonderful in the way you approach this. I am just a rabble rousing border line apostate.

Do you get what I am trying to say?

Yes. And as noted we most likely will not agree on this. I think your illustration shows this at least as far as the investment company goes.

[_wenglund]

The Church is my church and yours as members.

True--just as BYU is my alama mater

No I don't see this as the same.

and Fidelity Investments used to be my company.

Not at all. You just hire them to manage money. Which I imagine you had access to financial information before you did so.

It is just that I don't view it as my role to tell the leaders of those respective institution what to do with THEIR finances,

Really. You are just fine with Fidelity doing whatever they want with your the money you invest as well as the way they handle business? You never looked at a prospectus or company financials or at least were glad you could if you wished?

including in terms of public disclosure. That is their business, not mine. My role as a member is to be a good member.

No it is not. It is your business at least as far as Fidelity goes. It is similar for the Church. We are asked to give a substantial amount of time and money. LDS leaders, who are merely mortal manages these assets and have a fiduciary responsibility for those assets just as the money managers at Fidelity.

Does that mean that I or others can't harbor an opinion about how the finances may best be handled publically? Not at all. We are free to formulate opinions on whatever issue we want, and to voice those opinions whereever and whenever we see fit--heightened concerns about "dissent" notwithstanding.

Really? How can you form an opinion about something you have no data about?

To me, though, I find it works best to focus more on fulfilling my role as a member and formulating and voicing opinions in relation thereto.

Yes yes you are perfectly wonderful in the way you approach this. I am just a rabble rousing border line apostate.

Do you get what I am trying to say?

Yes. And as noted we most likely will not agree on this. I think your illustration shows this at least as far as the investment company goes.

Jason,

I was an employee of Fidelity, not an investor.

So, with that correction in mind, please re-read what I said to if it may help you to correctly grasp the point that I was making. ...or not.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Trevor]

Were it "the right thing to do" (in the leaders' far more informed and broadly scoped opinion), then that is what they would have been doing. Clearly, the leaders differ in their opinion from you.

Why do the self-appointed advisors to the prophets not get that?

Because we are not obsequious pushovers for whom it is sufficient that these guys say "I am God's servant"? That would be my first response. No offense.

[_Mister Scratch]

I'll be honest. When I sit down with my Bishop for an interview I want a REAL interview. I want to discuss my spiritual state and get some inspired advice. I want him to see through some of the facade I subconciously put up and tell me the things I don't want to hear but need to hear. Privacy and a Bishop worried about offending me are things I don't want in my interview.

I see through your "facade," Nehor, and have told you plenty of things you don't want, but need, to hear. Your reaction has always been very violent and childish. And believe me: I am not worried in the least about "offending" you.