The Top Ten Happenings in Mopologetics 2008

[_Ray A]

Disagreeing with a historian, or finding large flaws in their work and then pointing them out can be a good thing to do.

Out of curiosity, can you list how many of Quinn's books you've read, cover to cover?

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Disagreeing with a historian, or finding large flaws in their work and then pointing them out can be a good thing to do.

Out of curiosity, can you list how many of Quinn's books you've read, cover to cover?

Elder Statesman: A Biography of J. Reuben Clark
The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (not Extensions, though)
Only parts of Magic.
Pretty much every article he published with BYU Studies, a response I believe he wrote to the Tanners, and his "On Being a Mormon Historian (And Its Aftermath)."

[_Daniel Peterson]

Care to equivocate some more?

It's not clear that you understand the verb to equivocate.

I would love to forgive and forget your trespasses towards me, if you'd just let me.

Nothing prevents you from forgiving my alleged sins. That's your choice.

[_Mister Scratch]

Do you really deny that your posts are not full of unnecessary hyperbole and that you make the absolute worst conclusions, often with a few tid bits.

Yes, Jason: I deny that my posts contain "unnecessary hyperbole." I don't always make the "absolute worst conclusions...with a few tid bits."

Things like "lavish" incomes for DCP from apologetics is a fine sample.

Where did I say that? You are going to need to quote actual text, Jason. Otherwise, this is par for the course from you: no real evidence.

First of all, as usual you supply no real evidence or analysis.

Your own post are the evidence of hyperbole, and nefarious conclusions.

Where, Jason? Quote some text.

As DCP himself has pointed out: if he were to totally stop doing apologetics, it would not affect his salary by a single penny.

This as evidence that he is not receiving lavish compensation.

Wait....are you referring to my comments on his "lavish" travels around the globe? I do think they are somewhat lavish. Don't you?

Thus, it is rather hard to see how or why your complaints have any real merit.

As noted, my complaints are mostly about your over the top spinning as well as often making wild leaps like you did on the Midgely thread.

What "wild leaps" are you talking about, Jason? Again: some quotes would be nice.

[_Jason Bourne]

It turned out that, in fact, DCP and other apologists had been profiting for years, and that the financing of Mopologetics involved a multi-million-dollar web of intrigue. In post after post and thread after thread, the vast monetary empire of FARMS was exposed, and yet, even after all of this time, the full truth has not emerged. According to one tax document, DCP was paid over $20,000 for his apologetic works, and yet he denies that he ever saw any of the money, thus thickening the plot.

Meanwhile, TBMs have responded to these revelations by making jokes. The subject of Mopologetic financing was made a hotly read topic at MAD, and multiple "funnies" were made over this issue during Kerry Shirts's taping of the FAIR conference.

Perhaps most damning is the fact that apologists, notably Louis Midgley, have harshly attack poorly funded ministries critical of Mormonism in spite of the fact that FARMS has and operating budget that is in the millions. Just how these facts will affect Mopologetics in the end is unclear. What is certain is that these revelations---which, it should be pointed out, lured DCP out of his protective "shell" at MAD---marked a genuine "watershed moment" in the history of Mopologetics, much to the anger and chagrin of TBMs.

The above bolded items are just a small sampling of hyperbole and nefarious conclusions that you reach. The 990 did not show an operating budget of millions for FARMS. It showed it had assets of perhaps a few million, perhaps their endowment. This is not uncommon for such NFPs. The so called "lavish" trips DCP explained and none were apologetic related but that does not matter. You keep repeating this. Stating LDS apologist are profiting makes it sound like they are making many many dollars. This is not true. Even if DCP was paid, which he claims he was not, $20k in 1998, that is not much profiteering. Plus the word profiteering implies some sort of bad behavior. And why the hell is this and web of intrigue and where is the VAST MONETARY EMPIRE?

This absolutely is hyperbole that is over the top. You always conclude the worst this withoug much evidence at all. All your posts are full of such nonsense.

[_Mister Scratch]

It turned out that, in fact, DCP and other apologists had been profiting for years, and that the financing of Mopologetics involved a multi-million-dollar web of intrigue. In post after post and thread after thread, the vast monetary empire of FARMS was exposed, and yet, even after all of this time, the full truth has not emerged. According to one tax document, DCP was paid over $20,000 for his apologetic works, and yet he denies that he ever saw any of the money, thus thickening the plot.

Meanwhile, TBMs have responded to these revelations by making jokes. The subject of Mopologetic financing was made a hotly read topic at MAD, and multiple "funnies" were made over this issue during Kerry Shirts's taping of the FAIR conference.

Perhaps most damning is the fact that apologists, notably Louis Midgley, have harshly attack poorly funded ministries critical of Mormonism in spite of the fact that FARMS has and operating budget that is in the millions. Just how these facts will affect Mopologetics in the end is unclear. What is certain is that these revelations---which, it should be pointed out, lured DCP out of his protective "shell" at MAD---marked a genuine "watershed moment" in the history of Mopologetics, much to the anger and chagrin of TBMs.

The above bolded items are just a small sampling of hyperbole and nefarious conclusions that you reach. The 990 did not show an operating budget of millions for FARMS. It showed it had assets of perhaps a few million, perhaps their endowment.

"Perhaps"? It seems like you need to get your facts straight, Jason. I looked at the bottom line on those forms, and the figures were in the millions. These are the figures that allow FARMS to "operate," no?

This is not uncommon for such NFPs. The so called "lavish" trips DCP explained and none were apologetic related but that does not matter.

Some of them *were* apologetic. Did you not read the whole thread?

You keep repeating this.

Where? Again, do you have any actual evidence?

Stating LDS apologist are profiting makes it sound like they are making many many dollars. This is not true. Even if DCP was paid, which he claims he was not, $20k in 1998, that is not much profiteering. Plus the word profiteering implies some sort of bad behavior.

Jason, I did not say, "profiteering." Can you not read, man? I said they "profited," and that they have been for years. And they have. We can debate whether this is a small or a large sum. We can debate whether things beyond dollars constitute "profit." But for you to dismiss the raw facts as "spin" or "hyperbole" just isn't right, man.

And why the hell is this and web of intrigue and where is the VAST MONETARY EMPIRE?

I characterized it as a "web of intrigue" because DCP and other apologists have behaved in very odd, deceitful, and hypocritical ways. I have already mentioned Lou Midgley's "That Old Cash Nexus" article, in which he hypocritically bashes away at Christian ministries which don't have anywhere near the funding that FARMS does. Also, as I'm sure you noticed, DCP is frequently very dodgy when asked about Mopologetic financing. You'll notice that he always qualifies his responses by saying, "I was only paid such-and-such for my writing and speaking." He conveniently leaves out any payment related to administration, organization, editing, or whatever else.

This absolutely is hyperbole that is over the top. You always conclude the worst this withoug much evidence at all. All your posts are full of such nonsense.

More useless, evidence-free complaints. Nothing was "hyperbolic." I'm sure that if DCP or Ed Snow were to cough up the names of the high-ticket FARMS donors, it would most certainly be "intriguing." But, of course, they are going to keep this a secret. Can you tell me why, Jason?

Furthermore, since I always "conclude the worst," would you care to tell me what I said in response to DCP's thread on the translation project? You need to pull your head out, my friend.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I'm sure that if DCP or Ed Snow were to cough up the names of the high-ticket FARMS donors, it would most certainly be "intriguing." But, of course, they are going to keep this a secret. Can you tell me why, Jason?

I can.

It's not precisely a secret, but I'm not inclined to lay it all out for you. Why? Because it's none of your business. We have no obligation to furnish you a list of our donors.

[_Trevor]

It's not precisely a secret, but I'm not inclined to lay it all out for you. Why? Because it's none of your business. We have no obligation to furnish you a list of our donors.

Yeah, when the Prop 8 protestors are bored, Scratch & Gadianton may employ them to harass these folks.

[_Gadianton]

Bumping in the interest of the spirit of christmas.

[_Trevor]

Bumping in the interest of the spirit of christmas.

I guess one person's insult is another's gift.