The Nehor wrote:And this snub is probably wholly unrecognized as a snub by the people supposedly being snubbed.
You're probably right. Sisters have been treated like 2nd class citizens for the entire history of the Church. And the ladies in the Gen'l YW presidency are probably as TBM and unquestioning as they come. I'm sure they didn't feel snubbed at all.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
The Nehor wrote:And this snub is probably wholly unrecognized as a snub by the people supposedly being snubbed.
You're probably right. Sisters have been treated like 2nd class citizens for the entire history of the Church. And the ladies in the Gen'l YW presidency are probably as TBM and unquestioning as they come. I'm sure they didn't feel snubbed at all.
Then you agree that there is no problem? Hooray!!!!
Let me tell you something I saw. When my father was Bishop he showed me a letter he read about a change in the Young Men's organization. The heading was exactly the same. I guess men are second-class citizens too and are routinely snubbed without knowing it.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:When my father was Bishop he showed me a letter he read about a change in the Young Men's organization. The heading was exactly the same. I guess men are second-class citizens too and are routinely snubbed without knowing it.
You recall it being exactly the same? Besides, I bet the Gen'l YM presidency, being male, could easily be included in one of the addressee categories, and no one would be the wiser. Not so with females, since the letter is only written to "Brethren."
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
The Nehor wrote:When my father was Bishop he showed me a letter he read about a change in the Young Men's organization. The heading was exactly the same. I guess men are second-class citizens too and are routinely snubbed without knowing it.
You recall it being exactly the same? Besides, I bet the Gen'l YM presidency, being male, could easily be included in one of the addressee categories, and no one would be the wiser. Not so with females, since the letter is only written to "Brethren."
Not exactly the same in terms of font and everything but I was a teacher and was on a 'learn the organization' kick trying to figure out how each office related so yes, I'm sure it was the same.
They could not slip it to them. They don't fit. They're not General Authorities. If it was written and mentioned the General Officers of the Church then it could include the YM's Presidency. It could also include the YW, Relief Society, Primary, and SS Presidencies. So, unless they made a mistake on the addressee portion of that letter no one was snubbed or both genders were snubbed.
I think you need to just admit that you've got nothing here and move on. (See, I can imitate Scratch too)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:Not exactly the same in terms of font and everything but I was a teacher and was on a 'learn the organization' kick trying to figure out how each office related so yes, I'm sure it was the same.
Of course you are.
They could not slip it to them. They don't fit. They're not General Authorities. If it was written and mentioned the General Officers of the Church then it could include the YM's Presidency. It could also include the YW, Relief Society, Primary, and SS Presidencies. So, unless they made a mistake on the addressee portion of that letter no one was snubbed or both genders were snubbed.
Now you're just making stuff up. Show us the YM change letter that you apparently memorized.
I think you need to just admit that you've got nothing here and move on.
You're the one coming up with absurd comparisons. You still can't explain away the obvious snub of the Gen'l YW presidency (well, other than some letter you claim to have seen years ago, and apparently memorized, but give us some real evidence).
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
The Nehor wrote:Not exactly the same in terms of font and everything but I was a teacher and was on a 'learn the organization' kick trying to figure out how each office related so yes, I'm sure it was the same.
Of course you are.
They could not slip it to them. They don't fit. They're not General Authorities. If it was written and mentioned the General Officers of the Church then it could include the YM's Presidency. It could also include the YW, Relief Society, Primary, and SS Presidencies. So, unless they made a mistake on the addressee portion of that letter no one was snubbed or both genders were snubbed.
Now you're just making stuff up. Show us the YM change letter that you apparently memorized.
I think you need to just admit that you've got nothing here and move on.
You're the one coming up with absurd comparisons. You still can't explain away the obvious snub of the Gen'l YW presidency (well, other than some letter you claim to have seen years ago, and apparently memorized, but give us some real evidence).
I don't have the letter and you know that! They aren't supposed to be distributed. I didn't steal it from my father on the off chance I would need it to win an argument on the Internet in 15 years.
If you want to call me a liar just call me a liar and move on OR since you're making the accusation you could find letters about Sunday School or Young Men's or whatever yourself that show that those Presidencies were included and prove yourself right. Knock yourself out.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:I don't have the letter and you know that!
Yes, I do.
I didn't steal it from my father on the off chance I would need it to win an argument on the Internet in 15 years.
15 years? My, you do have a good memory.
If you want to call me a liar just call me a liar and move on ....
I'm not accusing you of lying ... I'm simply asking for evidence.
... OR since you're making the accusation you could find letters about Sunday School or Young Men's or whatever yourself that show that those Presidencies were included and prove yourself right. Knock yourself out.
I never made the claim, you did. Thus, the burden is on you. Knock yourself out.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
No, it was your statement that this was a snub aimed at women. I would expect that you could show a comparison between how men and women are treated by showing both sides. One side is useless.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
The Nehor wrote:No, it was your statement that this was a snub aimed at women. I would expect that you could show a comparison between how men and women are treated by showing both sides. One side is useless.
I was simply sharing my opinion that the Gen'l YW presidency was snubbed in this particular letter. You obviously disagree, going so far as to cite to a different letter you saw 15 years ago. Ergo, since you brought up the comparison to support your claim, the burden falls on you to establish the fact. No passing the buck, friend.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
The Nehor wrote:No, it was your statement that this was a snub aimed at women. I would expect that you could show a comparison between how men and women are treated by showing both sides. One side is useless.
I was simply sharing my opinion that the Gen'l YW presidency was snubbed in this particular letter. You obviously disagree, going so far as to cite to a different letter you saw 15 years ago. Ergo, since you brought up the comparison to support your claim, the burden falls on you to establish the fact. No passing the buck, friend.
Then I'll just call your argument unsubstantiated and move on. Bye.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
